My brother in law asked me to pay back a loan of a few thousand pounds after my wife was killed in an accident .

At the time I was grieving and vunerable and also embarrassed as I didn’t know about it

I started paying him back

to date I have paid over half and have decided to stop paying as I had no idea what it was for and didn’t see the money .

I’m now being threatened with county court

if this happens should I counter claim for the money I’ve paid as there is no proof and I just have no idea what it was for ???

Who is threatening you with county court ?

The brother in law because I stopped pay and told him I had no idea what the debt was and he arranged it and paid to my wife without my knowledge can’t even tell me what it was for

If he can't/won't show proof of this alleged debt, let him sue you so he will be forced to disclose proof.

As he will have to follow the pre action protocol he will need to produce evidence of this debt.

One problem I see for you is that you have paid him some money, so he could say that you have known about this all along and only now you have decided to stop paying.

I would personally ask for proof and look through wife's accounts to see if there's anything there.

Finding nothing I would let him sue and risk a little further loss as you might find a good judge that throws the case out.

Also he could avoid court as it's a 50/50 and he could also risk a counterclaim from you.

My personal opinion, then you'll have to do what you think best.

Anyhow, ask for proof.

So sorry to hear about your wife's death. In the awful circumstances of your wife being killed I can see how researching the law on this was not your first priority.

But it might be helpful to note that even if this debt does exist you personally are not legally liable for repaying it and cannot be sued in the county court. Nobody is responsible for or obliged to pay their spouse's debts. (Unless you had formally guaranteed the debt, which is not the case here.)

As for the payments you have already paid, if your b-i-l claimed this showed you accepted liability for the debt you'd have a strong defence. You would say, correctly, that you made the payments in error because you thought you were legally liable, and stopped paying when you discovered that you weren't. And I believe you could then recover payments made in error, but that needs researching a bit more.

The legal liability to repay this (if it is a loan that is legally repayable - that's yet to be established) falls on your late wife's Estate. Did she leave a Will? If so it's the responsibility of the Executors to satisfy themselves that the debt is actually due, and if it is to pay it.

It's not at all clear that this is a loan that could be recovered in court anyway. The court would have to decide whether it was a loan or a gift between brother and sister. Your b-i-l would have to prove to the court that the alleged loan was made. The court will not automatically accept it exists merely because he says so.

another point to consider is the terms of the loan. If it is written down then the terms will be clear but if it was somehting vague like "here is some money to tide you over pay it back when you can" then there isnt a start or finish date to the agreement so it cannot be enforced.

You may well have reasonable cause to sue him for the retun of what you have already paid as it was never your debt even if it existed. Some people are so unscrupulous they might just invent a story to get some money. My daughter's ex did that to try and get money from my wife.

Well Hes done it Ive got a claim on line.

Im going to strongly defend it.

I also have copies of messages from my wife to him discussing the loan.

All very secretive and paid into her account .

I have since sold the house and given her 2 sons aged 21 and 18 her share .

This has all come about as I have met someone.

If I counter claim it will cost me funds I cant really afford .

I just want him to leave me alone.

There is nothing to show that I had any money off him.

He is stating that I knew about the loan which i didnt until after her death.

He has stated on his claim form that there are witnesses.

The worry I have is that I started paying him 250 per month but stopped when advised i am not liable.

I have bank statements showing the money going into my wifes account and coming out to other accounts but I have no idea where to .

He has also included in his claim £10 from a family meal and a bill for a solicitor.

I have no copy of the bill im not disputing it but I have requested a copy in response to his letter before action.

This has not been received.

There actually is no proof of debt at all .

I just dont relish going to court and seeing all my deceased partners relatives standing making false statements , I just want to move on now but this isnt going to go away.

My defense will have to be in by 4th March which Im ok with doing.

What happens next.?

Thread moved to General Legal Issues Forum in view of the court claim received and thread title updated.

Regards

Andy

anney63, please can give more information about your late wife's Will.

Did she leave one? If so who are the executors? 

They are responsible for paying any debts of your late wife.

Also can you post up on here a copy of the claim form you have received (with all identifying information, claim numbers, bar codes etc removed).

I've been away and only just logged back into CAG to read the thread.

I see you has until yesterday to respond.

What defence did you send (identifying details removed again)?

Well I lost my case and to make it worse the judge put the debt back to £5000 even though I had already paid 1900.

I didnt take my bank statements showing payments.

I now have a judgement of £6000+ .

I cant pay so will have to wait for paperwork and see what next move is

. He had a load of witness statements which were in effect character assassinations nothing to do with the debt.

Took 27 of my dead wife's family and friends with him.

Whole thing very traumatic

. Cant believe the judge put the debt up more.

Said I created another contract with my wording in my statement I said that I would honour the debt when He pressured me a week after the accident when I had lost my wife and at an all time low.

 I was honest in my witness statement a lot of good that's done me.

I also had to take a load of verbal abuse outside court. All this because I have found someone else. 

Can I do anything about claiming my £1900 back.?

Still not received my judgement paperwork back .

This is now going to affect my remortgaging in 2 years time I presume.

I just feel numb and have lost faith in our legal system I would have been better off not turning up at all.

How is it a judge can increase the amount of the original claim ??

Sounds weird.

You were there, so you should know. 

Is it a case of the claimant giving a lot of figures to confuse the judge and being successful?

Showing up with an entourage of 27 angry relatives...

I suppose the judge didn't see them, otherwise things could've  gone the other way.

Still waiting for the judgment paperwork . The claim was for 4100 which included interest . The original amount my dead wife borrowed was £5000 so the judge said as I hadn’t proved I had paid some off he was putting it back to the original amount even though brother in law admitted I had paid . I have now got a debt of 6200. Let’s see what paperwork says and how much they expect me to pay each month . Who knows . ?? No faith in the system at all !!!

Are you sure the judge said that after your bil admitted that you paid some of the debt?

Did you pay in cash?

No receipts?

No paid by bank transfer but as I hadn’t included my bank statements proving payment . I did question the judge and stated that they weren’t required as the claimant admitted I had paid it but he just acted as if he couldn’t be bothered as there was a lot of huffing and puffing in court from my dead wife’s relatives . He just wanted it out the way when I said I couldn’t pay that he just said that he couldn’t deal with that and that was it . I’m gathering the money together with help from my new partners family and paying him off  I don’t want it on my record . Can I take him to court for what I’ve already paid after that ?. Still not received judgement paperwork . 

anney63 I am sorry to hear what has happened. It all sounds rather odd from  legal point of view. As advised earlier you are not responsible for your late wife's debts unless you have personally guaranteed them. It sounds as if the court decided that you had guaranteed the debt yourself and created some form of contract between yourself and your BiL to repay the debt.

It would help us understand what has happened if you can post up on here the original claim (with all personal identifying information removed).

I also don't understand why the debt wasn't paid from your late wife's Estate. I asked about this in post 10 above. Can you give the information asked for in that post please. (Again don't identify names)

There was no will I was paying this debt monthly as it was bought to my attention a month after she died and like a fool I agreed to pay it thinking I was liable I wa also laid up myself after the crash and vulnerable  I paid off her credit card debt etc as I thought  i was liable . The family were fine until I found someone else. It has been hell but I’m paying the judgement to get rid of them but I feel there should be some way I can get the payments I’ve made back . The judge didn’t want to listen even my ex brother in law admitted I had paid it maybe he’ll repay it when he gets the money let’s see  I just want rid of them my wife would be horrified at their treatment . 

I realise how difficult this is for you but without more details and seeing the actual claim it's almost impossible to advise what you might be able to do next. 

Your wife left no Will so who administered her Estate? Who was granted Letters of Administration by the Probate Office? Was there enough money in the Estate to pay the alleged loan from her brother? Why wasn't it paid rom the Estate?

If you post the claim made by your BiL on here (identifying details removed) it will help us understand the legal argument your BiL was making.

My partner has paid this judgement out of her bank just to get them off our backs is this ok ? 

It's OK in that it doesn't matter who pays it, if the debt the court ordered you to pay is paid by someone then it is settled and that is the end of the matter. There's no further appeals you can make and no way (AFAIK) of re-opening it if your partner has paid it on your behalf.

Well he’s now written to the court stating that the debt has been paid but it looks suspicious as paid by someone he doesn’t know but quotes the judgement number .

If that isn’t vindictive nothing is .

What I would like to know is other than an ex343 firm which I have completed .

How can I claim the overpayment back .

This guy knows he’s received money he wasn’t entitled to .

The judge just was in a rush and hadn’t even looked at anything other than my witness statement .

We both stated the amount had been paid but he brushed both of us aside .

2 hours was quoted as the estimate for this case which took a few minutes and all because my wording in my statement said I agreed to honour the debt as I was being pressured 1 week after the accident when my wife was killed and I was at home recouperating . I wasn’t aware that I was responsible .apparently that created a new contract !!!

There was no will only her personal credit card debts which I paid as again I thought I was responsible . The house became mine under survivorship . Sorry to go on but a bit angry now . 

Money come and goes.

Whenever someone dies there are vultures around trying all sort of things to extract some money from the next of kin.

It happened to us when our dad gave up the ghost.

Upsetting at the time, but then it's cursed money and it will bring only trouble to the fraudsters.

Move on.

If the judge made such a glaring error (or errors) as you claim, why didn't you appeal against his decision?  I'm by no means certain but I would have thought that now your partner has paid it, you've essentially accepted the judgment and that's that?  I'm not sure you can now reopen it.

Because it would have cost more money and also meant another hearing . I have lost all faith in the judicial system as I was sure I had a cast iron defence .