just received a letter wanting £60 for going over by 24 minutes (this is the thanks we get for high street shopping).

As usual the car park was practically empty so there's no need for parking restrictions and actually it might help the retailers!

Bit of a side question, legally can something be "abuse" if it can be proved that the overstay was unintentional/unavoidable?

Isn't it only abuse if the act was intentional?

Okay, so should I fill out their online appeal form using the template found on MSE or should I completely ignore?

I'm not keen on the MSE template so if there's anything better please send a link (if that's allowed on here).

I've decided to use the parkingcowboys letter.

Seems a bit better.

Doesn't ask for time-stamped photo evidence of the car entering and leaving the car park but instead questions the validity of the charge itself and whether it's a reasonable amount.

I can't see how any court would agree that £100 (or £60 for early payment) is reasonable for 24 minutes parking in an empty retail car park when shops are closing.

Thanks

From who?

You only respond to a letter of claim from their fake/tame paperonly solicitor by mail not email.....

we need to know what has happened so far. If you havet contacted CEL yet DONT.

we can advise what to do and when but please dont drop yourself in it by doing unneccessary things.

let us know all about the wheres and whens as well. CEL are rubbish at getting things right so it is almost impossible for them to actually be owed anything whatever the reason they give

Hi All

28/11/18

I received a letter from CEL.

They claim that at I parked on Portwood Court car park in Stockport between 18:22 and 19:48 on the 26/11/18.

I can't confirm or deny at this stage whether their time frame is correct.

(If anyone knows this car park you'll know that there's maybe 60 spaces and never any more than a dozen cars on there even at peak times. At that time there would have been maybe 3-4 cars in there. This is because it's not the main retail car park so requires people to walk a few extra yards.)

This car park states 1 hour free parking.

It says that to "deter abuse" a £100 fine will be applied to anyone that stays beyond the free period.

I know that due to Cyber Monday I queued at Argos and was then made to wait in PCWorld for a "business" team member to process an order. I don't think I was over an hour in just 2 shops but it was very busy.

28/11/18

I received a Parking Charge Notice through the post demanding I pay £100 (or £60 within 2 weeks).

03/12/18

I used the parkingcowboys letter to challenge their costs via their online appeals process. Here's a copy of what I put (I've redacted any sensitive bits):

07/12/18

I received a letter through the post from CEL confirming that my appeal was unsuccessful (no surprise).

They said that due to Data Protection they could not provide any details of their clients or the contracts they have in place.

None of my questions were answered although I thought they had a legal obligation to.

They say I now have another 14 days to pay £60. If I challenge with POPLA and lose I'll lose the discount.

What should I do next?

Also, from a legal perspective, can something be "abuse" if it can be proved that the action was unintentional? Surely abuse is when you consciously choose to do something against the rules.

Thanks

Nick

Appeal Text.pdf

Thanks ericsbrother, I thought keeping these things together in one thread was a good idea but I have done so.

Unfortunately I can't supply the link because I haven't posted enough yet. I'm sure you can find the post though.

posts moved to your own thread

please complete this

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket-(1-Viewing)-nbsp

This car park states 1 hour free parking.

It says that to "deter abuse" a £100 fine will be applied to anyone that stays beyond the free period.

can you show us the sign where they use the word FINE please as you stated above?

Sorry, it says "charged":

carparksigns.compressed.pdf

get the link done too please

charging to deter abuse is not permitted, you are either being invited to consuder a contract or it is a penalty charge and if the latter it is unlawful.

Signage not complaint with POFA and CEL's letters fail miserably in that as well but they dotn care.

What this does mean howver is that even if they sue you they woont attend court to explain themselves and thus use the court process not to recover monies actually owed but to coerce payment and thus treat the courts as they would an unlicenced debt collector, which is against Civil Procedure.

You might want to ask the BPA why they allow their members to erect signs and send out NTK's that are not POFA complaint and make no mention of the independent appeals process yet remain BPA members. Also write to the DVLA and ask why a cmpany that is not a mamber fo an ATA is allowed access to your personal data via the KADOE system when others like Ransomes are correctky barred from doing so.

Expect waffle as a response but it is all ammunition to get parliament to force the DVLA to start behaving themsleves and act live a Govt dept rather tyhan just a careless money grabbing freelancer

At this point I would be tempted to use the paper as toilet paper. I would also follow the advice above of ericsbrother in relation to the dvla.

Hi All, sorry for the lack of response. I really appreciate your input.

I think I'll just ignore it and see what happens next. I've got a lot going on at the moment so can't waste the time playing their silly little games.

You are right to ignore them for the moment.

However it is good to do some homework to protect yourself if CEL decide that £100 is a reasonable charge and decide to take you to Court.

If you post up your NT K to see if it is compliant and show is photographs of the notices in the the car park as well as where they are in the car park that would help to show if there was a contract being offered.

Also check with the local Council planning department to see if CEL have permission

To erect notices and cameras there under the Town and Country (advertisements)

Regulations. If they haven't they are dead in the water and many do not have it.

Once you know that you are safe then you can relax and ignore them.

can we have the link in post 7 completed here please

and

scan up bothsides of your NTK to one multipage PDF.

dx

Hi All

Here's a "brief" history...

26/11/218 - Cyber Monday

I parked at Portwood Court in Stockport, which offers 1 hour of free parking. The car park has the following signposts dotted about: carparksigns.compressed.pdf

As usual the car park was practically empty when I arrived and was even quieter when I left.

(The Portwood car park is always very quiet because it's over the road from the main retail car park. The only shops still trading at the Portwood car park close at 7pm. In addition there's a small Pizza Hut, open until 10pm.)

I only went into two shops at the retail park (Argos and then PCWorld). I can confirm that PCWorld's "business" team were really really slow at dealing with my order so I can't be sure of how long I was in the car park. I can confirm that I did not "abuse" the retail car park (this appears to be the excuse CEL gives for issuing fines) because I was purely giving business to the retail park during my entire stay.

28/11/18

I received a letter from CEL demanding that I pay £100 (discounted to £60 if paid with 14 days). They claim that I had been parked from 18:22 until 19:48. £60 seems a bit excessive for 26 minutes of parking at a time when most of the retail shops were closed or about to close.!

03/12/18

I used the parkingcowboys letter to challenge their costs via their online appeals process. Here's a copy of what I put (I've redacted any sensitive bits):Appeal Text.pdf

07/12/18

I received a letter (see attached photo) through the post from CEL confirming that my appeal was unsuccessful (no surprise).

They fail to provide any of the information I asked for.

They said that due to Data Protection they could not provide any details of their clients or the contracts they have in place.

08/01/19 (date of letter)

Reminder received asking for £100.

15/02/19 (date of letter)

Letter received stating that in 14 days they will pass the debt to a third party. To avoid this they wanted me to pay £140.

11/03/19 (date of letter)

Debt Collection Notice from ZZPS asking for £170.

The letter asked me to call 01932 918916 to discuss payment.

14/03/19

I tried calling 01932 918 916 several times and got an automated message each time (I managed to make a recording of this message). The message said:

"The party's call minder belonging to 01483478289 is full and can't accept any more messages. Please try again later. Goodbye." Call then hangs up.

19/03/19

I tried the number again but got the same message.

20/03/19

I tried the number again and got a message saying thanks for calling ZZPS. A message then kept repeatedly asking me to hold over and over again for the first 2 minutes. The messages then stopped and instead switched to ringing out. I hung up after 10 minutes.

21/03/19

I tried the number again and the same thing happened (I have a recording). After 9 minutes I gave up.

25/03/19 (date of letter)

14 day notice of legal action from ZZPS if I didn't pay £170.

06/06/19 (date of letter)

Letter from CEL asking for £182.

Letter states that county court action will be taken if this isn't paid within 30 days.

31/07/19

County Court Paperwork received!

FURTHER INFORMATION

CEL states they offer operators to speak to during normal working hours, see here: https://www.ce-service.co.uk/contact-us.html

From the very beginning I wanted to talk to them to challenge the fine. I therefore called this number many many times during standard office hours but all you get is their automated payment system. There's no way of speaking to an "operator". I tried entering the PCN number but the only two options it gave me was to pay in full or enter into a repayment plan. (I have recordings of this.)

I didn't contact POPLA because that got sidelined while I tried and eventually gave up trying to resolve this amicably. (I was also advised not to respond after having my appeal rejected because they failed to respond adequately.)

So what should I do next? Obviously I need to file a defence but I'm looking for some helpful pointers if possible.

What I'd like to do is have the case dropped. I would love to win a counterclaim for all the hassle and stress they've caused me but I think that might be pushing things.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can give me.

Nick

appeal refusal.pdf

Where does it use the word FINE please on any of their Paperwork...

1st big mistake - its a speculative invoice

2nd big Mistake - you appealed 

3rd big mistake - you ignored the Letter Of Claim.

4th big mistake - you repeatedly tried to ring people

please complete this:

Follow the instructions given in the link in DX's post abvove then the relavent advice for your particular situation can be given, but yes appealing was not helpful at all,  it's like a fish biting on a worm and being hooked, to be reeled in at the PPCs pleasure.

Hi to you both and thanks for the initial response. I don't think it actually uses the word fine anywhere, sorry for any confusion.

Here's the info you asked for verbatum:

Name of the Claimant: Civil Enforcement Limited

Claimant's Solicitors: QDR Solicitor Ltd (according to earlier letter as not shown on County Court paperwork)

Date of issue: 30th July 2019

Submit defence by: 31st August 2019

Particulars of Claim:

Claim for monies relating to a Parking Charge for parking in a private car park managed by the Claimant in breach of the terms + conditions (T+Cs). Drivers are allowed to park in accordance with the T+Cs of use. ANPR cameras and/or manual patrols are used to monitor vehicles entering + exiting the site. Debt + damages claimed the sum of 182.00.

Violation date: 26/11/2018

Time in: 18:22 Time out: 19:48

PCN ref: DELETED

Car reg no: DELETED

Car park: Portwood Court Retail Park

Total Due- 182.00

(Ref:www.ce-service.co.uk or Tel:01158225020)

The Claimant claims the sum of 191.77 for monies relating to a parking charge per above including 9.77 interest pursuant to S.69 of the County Courts Act 1984

Rate 8.00%pa from dates above to- 29/07/19

Same rate to Judgment or (sooner) payment

Daily rate to Judgment-0.04

Total debt and interest due- 191.77

Court fee: £25.00

Legal representative's costs: £50.00

Total Amount due: £266.77

I'm quite worried now. I thought sending in the parkingcowboys letter asking for various information was the recommended thing to do. I also thought that the response I got was incomplete so they are now on the back foot. In an earlier thread I was advised not to respond any further as their claim for money was invalid. I honestly didn't see dx100uk's back in December requesting info off the NTK but just in case it's helpful here are the missing questions answered:

I did NOT get photo evidence.

The back of the NTK mentions the Freedoms Act 2012.

They have no record of me trying to ring because I withheld my number and was unable to get through on every single attempt. I can prove these attempts were made due to various call recordings and the itemised call history from my phone bill. I thought that it would help my case being able to prove to a court that I attempted to follow the County Court advice to "try to resolve the issue by discussion". Surely a judge would throw out the case because CEL/ZZPS failed to answer my repeated phone calls even though they clearly offer to take calls. In fact ZZPS's letter only offered a phone number to arrange payment so not answering made it impossible to do so even if I wanted to.

Cheers

Nick

Use the MCOL website to acknowledge the claim, and tick defend all   as per the  instructions in Andyorch's sticky in DX's post above Get pictures of all signage, cameras etc and machines on the site and post them up as a multipage pdf,  the clock is ticking so get onto it asap.

now like CEL's actual NTK's the POC doesnt contain the information required to fulfil the procedural rules and you can use your outline defence to challenge that but only as an add-on to the main defence.

CEL NEVER gets their NTK's right so your appealing has sunk over 50% of your possible defence as you have removed all protection of the POFA. you could have beaten them on the fact their NTK doesnt create any liability.

However, CEL also have ruined their prosects of a succesful claim as the signs make it clear that it isnt a contract to park but an unlawful penalty charge  desigend to deter as they make clear.  No mention of any other terms for parking at all. Also it fails to show which of the Trade Associatiosn they belong to and although this is a monor point as far as contract law goes anything that tips the balance of probability in your favour should be used.

So you send CEL the standard CPR 31.14 request for documents ( they are not secret under data protection, they will have to produce them at court) and in the meanwhile you look for your evidence so we want pictures of the entrance to the land from the public highway and sight of any signs there, a plan of the car park and an indication of where the signs were and where you parked. Also pictures of any signs that are different to the one shown already.

you have the best part of a month to enter an outline defence as long as you acknowledge the claim in time,do this online at moneyclaim and it will save a lot of paperwork and show CEL that you mean business.

lastly WHO signed their claim form? It has to have an individuals sig, not their usual  CEL in the box for legal representative. They do this to screw an illegal £50 out of you if you dont pull them up on this. You say QDR solicitors so do they give their address for service of docs?

post up the originasl NTK and your appeal letter and we can try and see what can be salvaged as far as procedural errors go.

also give us the full address of the car park so we can have a look at google and also search the local council planning portal to see if they have planning permission for their kit. No PP and they are committing a criminal offence and thus no contract can ever be formed.

Hi, I have acknowledged the claim and submitted that I wish to defend all. I'm heading into my office now but will provide the requested info about the car park later today.

I can confirm that Civil Enforcement Limited signed the court paperwork.

Also, I'm not sure if I've misinformed you over what communication I've had with CEL. All I did was complete their online "Appeal" form to ask them for all relevant information before I decide how to proceed:Appeal Text.pdf

Their reply was by letter and they basically refused to answer any of my questions.

Thanks

Nick

In answer to your question, one of the protections under POFA is that you do not have to reveal the name of the driver. So if they take someone to Court they cannot assume that the keeper is aslo the driver. By you appealing they know that you were the driver and not just the keeper. 

Also if you were not the driver they could not charge for many of the extras as they only apply to the driver who had seen the signs in the car park. This would make their claim wrong.

But we are where we are. You were unaware of these matters and now that you have contacted us we will give you best advice as to how to beat these crooks. In the meantime do not contact any of them [especially their unregulated debt collector ] apart from sending off the CPR letter. Don't expect a reply as they often haven't complied with the relevant regulations required which is good for you should CEL stupidly decide to take you to Court.

Once we get all the info we have asked you for, we will send off a snotty leter to them to make them realise that their case is lost. So the sooner  we can see where they have gone wrong [and they will have] the sooner you should get them off your back.

OK, my reading of your "appeal" is that it doesnt identify you as the driver and they cant assume that you were.

Now their failure to follow the protocols of the POFA should sink their claim but many judges still havent read the POFA and make assumptions they are not entitled to so you will have to ram it down their throat in your witness statement if that becomes necessary.

Please post up the NTK and we will pick holes in that as there is usually plenty wrong with it that can be used in your outline defence to suggest that the court uses its powers to chuck the claim out on its own initiative.

I will also reiterate the point about a person having to sign the POC as being a stateemnt of truth and CEL usually screw this up so that should be made the subject of the same request for  striking out. They tell lies to claim an extra £50 from the unwarya nd when they are told to correct their paperwork by a case management order they run away rather than resubmit with the additional fee

Thanks everyone, I am trying my best to stay calm. Sounds like perhaps my appeal submission wasn't as bad as I made it sound. 

Here's the signage, which is displayed throughout the car park: carparksigns.compressed.pdf 

The car park can be seen here in Google: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4154294,-2.1499706,113m/data=!3m1!1e3

Here's the entrance I used: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4153394,-2.149726,3a,60y,303.37h,86.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEfhbUj6DmifbqQJSVpu1yA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

(I don't know if this matters but the latest satellite photo Google has shows a busy car park. I can assure everyone here that the car park was almost empty, as it usually is. If CEL had provided photos/video this would hopefully be evident.)

I will need to scan and email the NTK tonight when I get home from work.

I am very grateful for all your ongoing help and (moral) support.

Thanks

Nick

now name the location and tell us what it says on the NTK as they have to identify the land amongst other things.

, I need to know how big they are and how many there are in the car park and their location.

You will need this for your full defence so the sooner the better but if you cnat gte back there for a while that is fine, you are months away from a conclusion to this anyway

We need to see the NTK so do you still have it?

now what do you make of the streetview images?

I looked at the entrance n Peter St for 2017 and there is a sign saying free parking terms apply.

That is an invitation to treat and not a contract that says you owe them money for anything.

In the main entrance there is no sign offering a contract, just the same as the back entrance  so  a lack of notice means you werent offered anything as the other signs may not apply and not your buisness to go and read every random advertisement board .

The overhead images dont even show a lamppost that the signs are on at the right of the entrance and this will help you so do a screen grab of that to show that the sign may well not have been there when you were parked up.

They will say that is was but you will have by then checked with the council whether they applied for planning consent for this new sign, let alone the others.

CEL like to use computer generated mock ups of their signs etc so you need to have plenty of strong images to show what is really there and that will include lighting so try and grab some piccies in poor light to shw that you cant see diddly squat on a moonless rainy november night