Hi Guys,

posting for a friend who needs more than my advice to be reassured what to do, she is on the verge of paying these people!

Windscreen ticket in a marked bay for council flats,

marked bay was allocated to the resident who was in the car, google nosey neighbour doesn't show the flat's car park as it's gated.

The driver was giving the resident a lift home with a baby and helped them into the flat and came out to a PCN, there doesn't seem to be a 'from' and 'to' parking time and the driver says she was only there long enough to drop the baby and shopping off and come out, so possibly over 10 minutes.

I have scans of the NTD and NTK in a word document with pictures of the car in the bay and the signage which is too high to see from a car, but I cannot make them into a PDF as I do not have the software or the know how and my PC is on it's last legs so I can't download any new programs.

Happy to PM the word doc to anyone willing to help, but it's not redacted either so I will trust you!

I suggested doing an appeal that the driver was parked in a marked bay allocated to the resident with the resident's permission which trumps any agreement they may think they have.

Advice please guys?

1 Date of the infringement: 01/11/2018

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]: posting date 03/12/2018 notice date 05/12/2018

3 Date received : 05/12/2018

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [y/n?] Y

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?: yes - photos on www.paymypcn-uk.co.uk

6 Have you appealed? no - need some advice from you guys

7 Who is the parking company?: Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd, SL1 2XF

8. Where exactly?: Capstan Drive RM13 Google maps doesn't show the car park for the flats, car was parked in allocated bay for the flat it was visiting

I managed to find someone under the age of 30 to do the PDF conversion on their laptop, please see attached for all the NTD, NTK and other info

PCN info for CAG 01_11_2018_01.pdf

Less than 10mins no dice PCM

They have a min of 10 mins to read signs etc before a ticket can be issued

and thats a MINIMUM. Theres no maximum

- - - Updated - - -

Plus the whole supremacy of contract. The bay was allocated to your friend. Your friend gave permission to park there.

Thanks Guys, I'll do the 'soft appeal' based on supremacy of contract then hit them with non compliant signs at POPLA stage

Guys, there's no mention of POPLA on the NTK but it does mention IAS and states they will engage with the IAS providing their appeals procedure is followed and an appeal to IAS is sent within 21 days of rejection.

IAS is not POPLA and these cowboys are members of IPC as their logo is on the NTK.

This is my soft appeal below; but do I need to mention the part about you must provide an IAS/POPLA/IPC code or just leave that line out?

Dear Sirs,

You have sent the above Parking Charge Notice to me as registered keeper of the vehicle identified in the PCN.

Please note that I do not advise you that I was driving the vehicle at the time the PCN was issued.

I reject your PCN for keeper liability on the following grounds:

The vehicle was parked in an allocated parking bay for the residence the vehicle was attending, with the permission of the resident and bay owner, that permission succeeds any contract you believe you hold under which you issue parking charges.

If you reject this notification you must provide POPLA/IAS/IPC appeals code

IAS dont do pola as they know theyd get railroaded. They have their own appeals system were 99% of appeals are denied. Every PPC that signs up to the IAS dont follow the rules. Thats why they set up their own system.

So I do the initial appeal to PCM UK Ltd, they reject it and then they have to give me a code to appeal to IAS?

Is that correct?

its a complete waste of time appealing. They will just deny your appeal.

They have their own appeals system were 99% of appeals are denied

Homer, the IPC, its appeals body the IAS and the firm of solicitors they all normally use - are all run by the same people! No conflict of interest there!!! They're conmen, plain & simple, appeals are pointless (and can even be counterproductive as you might give away who the driver was and in any case taking their crooked procedures seriously makes them think you may cough up).

But don't fear, the fleecers' strategy is all based on hoping the motorist will be intimidated into paying. They couldn't give a toss about the law. Ignore their drivel and if they do eventually send you a LBA the regulars will be here to tell them where to get off and sink their laughable claim.

Your case is one of the strongest on here - the 10-minute grace period PLUS supremacy of contract. They would be imbeciles to take you to court as the judge would just give them a hell of a kicking.

DO NoT APPEAL, better to let them waste their time and money and also they then wont know what you are thinking. They are not above changing their story as to waht you have supposedly doen wrong and one parking co even reissued a ticket after the event to fit in with the appeal rather than just admitting they got it wrong.

I would bet that the signage makes their claim of a breach nonsense anyway as permit parking conditions only appl;y to those with permits and are prohibitive for anyone else so no offer of terms.

Also you say local authority estate- I do not believe that the LA has givent hese bandits a contract, more likely it is someone at the housing management co that have accepted the free golf holiday and them coincidentally signed these people up but that doesnt automatically create an agency with the landowner.

In short, I do not believe they ahve a ghost of a chance of winning this so let them waste their time and money chasing you until the very last moment and them hit back so they will get clobbered for unreasonable conduct of they do take it to court

Hang on I'm confused - we stopped telling people to ignore after POFA came in to force didn't we?

All I was going to do was follow the procedure of soft appeal, then appeal to IAS or IPC depending on who they refer me to after they reject my soft appeal, so they couldn't say on issuing an LBA then a court claim, that I have not played ball.

Are you saying I should not do that?

What EB is saying is that you effectively show them your hand by appealing. I wouldn't worry about being seen to play ball - refer any future judge to the fact they're all linked, and appealing to them is only something the unaware would bother with.

you don't ignore EVERYTHING

if you get a letter of claim from one of their fake/tame paperonly solicitors

you need to reply...BUT THE RIGHTWAY.

Not ignore but just dont bother with their processes because they are mere kangaroo courts rather than an independent appeals process.

By not appealing you actually place yourself in a better position for several reasons so keep all of the paperwork safe until someone send a proper lba or PAP letter.

OK guys thanks, I won't do anything unless I get an LBA

spot on, keep us up to date on what does arrive in the post though so we can gauge how far things have progressed time wise

Hi Guys, received the following today attached, wording of my soft appeal is below (the car owner insisted we respond), I presume it is now just ignore until we get a LBA?

Dear Sirs,

You have sent the above Parking Charge Notice to me as registered keeper of the vehicle identified in the PCN.

Please note that I do not advise you that I was driving the vehicle at the time the PCN was issued.

I reject your PCN for keeper liability on the following grounds:

You have failed to comply with many of the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to,

Failing to give the period of parking required by 9 (2) (a)

You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

NTK rejected appeal 10_01_2018.pdf

No surprise there.

so why does your friend think that they would change their minds? They are not honest brokers, it is their business model to screw people for money and they have no legitimate reason to charge anyone.

As for their appeal content, that is hardly going to scare them and thier response is a stock answer so has ignored the appeal com-pletely basically they are treating him with contempt so please point this out so he realises why we say dont bother most of the time

so why does your friend think that they would change their minds?

Basically because I am male and therefore always wrong!

Basically because I am male and therefore always wrong!

Quite right too! A man's place is in the wrong!

a general observation, women like to try and reach a settlement or compromise with as little conflict as possible. This will always be a disadvantage when it comes to matters such as this, a black and white attitude is needed and always believe you are in the right until undeniably proven that isnt the case.

We see a lot of thread where people think that the parking co will be reasonable, honest and want to see the matter ended. Nothing is further from the truth. Anyone watch Manhunt on ITV about Levi Bellfield? What was his employment? ( for those who didnt watch he worked for a parking co as a clamper) Nuff said.

Guys, one thing I've noticed is that on the rejection of appeal letter they have referred to the registered keeper as Mr X XXXX where their actual name is Mrs X XXXX.

Only the title is wrong, the initial and name is correct.

How much, if any, difference does that make?

zero difference