nhs contracts?

Hi all,

i am now working in the nhs as part of the theatre department and in doing so signed the usual contract agreeing to working on calls, late shifts and weekends etc,

the problem is that some staff are not taking part in this arrangement because of various reasons

( my cats scared of the dark or little johnny wets the bed) sanctioned by the managers and therefore the remaining staff are having to work extra shifts to compensate.

My question is, are we all being treated equally and do we have any basis for taking action against the management.

Any help would be great.

Cheers.

Hello there. Have you looked at the ACAS website or rung their confidential helpline? Also, directgov have information that could cover this on their website.

HB

Hi,

What action(s) would you like to take against management?

Hi , thanks for your quick replies.

i will ring acas if it gets to the stage where i need mediation or advice

in the mean time i'm trying to work out how many extra on calls i am doing over the coming year compared to others.

My manager is close to retirement (this year) and doesn't give a flying one for anybody, she says its not up to her what shifts staff get.

Ideally i would like to kick all the managers off their gravy train if i could prove bias or malice toward me through legal action,

lets not forget that all these on calls mean that i have to stay at the hospital overnight wich means i spend less time with my family than other employees and its not fair,

so if legal action is what it takes so be it.

Thanks for your input.

Hi Everyone,

I work at a large childrens hospital in theatres,

new managers have recently come in to make savings and improve services (which we are all for)

the problem is that they have split the shifts into two, long days and short days but both shifts still covering 37.5 hours per week, and each staff member could choose which shift would suit them, great so far.

The problem is that after we have made our choices and the new shifts have started it transpires that the short days shift has to cover weekend emergencies and also weekday/evening emergencies, this means that those doing short days are being forced into overtime that would normally be spread between all staff members.

They did not give us this information before we made our choices so is ther anything in employment law about this?

Any help or advice would be gratefully appreciated by the whole theatre team.

Cheers xxorlsxx

Not really. I am assuming that this has been necessitated by working time regulations which prevent the "long days" from doing shifts of a certain length and overtime. But presumably they may be just as annoyed at loosing the right to get overtime? I would suggest a collective grievance - through the union if you have one.

Thanks for your reply,

It is true that people are upset at losing overtime but it's also the fact that people are also having to work longer to compensate, we wern't informed of this so we couldn't make the right choice for our needs.

I think your right about a mass greivence through the union as our contracts say that we are entitled to a full consultation on any working time changes.

I dont think we had enough information to choose the best shift pattern for our individual needs so it could be a breach of contract perhaps.

Thanks for your help,

xxorlsxx

Hi,

i work at a major hospital in the theatre dept,

for years when working past 1am up till 8am we have been claiming double time and this payment is known as "sleep time" this has been going on for years now,

we have recently had a new manager who is saying that because she can find no written agreement on this payment that we have been making fraudulent claims and that they are going to end this payment.

Firstly if they have been paying us for so many years is'nt it now contractual?

and secondly if they cant prove fraud then they must continue payment?

Any help would be great Thanks.

Hello there, I hope we can help you.

Is there nothing in writing at all about this then? Do you know who agreed it? And my other question is do you have a union?

My best, HB

It would be interesting to know who authorized the first payment, then go from there.

Not sure when it becomes an implied part of your contract will have to look that up. How many years, exactly, have you been receiving this?

There is no specified time in which an event becomes customary, but the more extended the time period, the more likely a Tribunal would be prepared to agree that the employer has been happy to allow it to become customary.

Hi, thanks for your quick replies,

we have been getting this payment for at least ten years now,

the manager who is trying to block it says that she can find no agreement or who authorized any such payment,

the most upsetting thing is being accused of fraud,

most of my department are not in a union but i am and have contacted my rep for help on this matter.

The nhs has a dedicated fraud office and i can't understand why they are not investigating this,

if it is fraud which i don't believe it is then the money must be paid back and i would be happy to do this,

personally i think the managers are trying to scare us into giving up this payment whithout a fight.

Any thoughts would help as we are already understaffed and its getting worse.

Thanks.

Hello again.

There's an NHS forum here. Although I usually move employment queries to this forum, it might be worth putting a brief description of your problem there, with a link to this thread. Please don't start a duplicate thread or we'll both be in trouble.

You might find other people with experience of this, you never know.

HB

If it has been 10 years then a tribunal i think would find that it is an implied term of contract.

Thanks guys, i'll keep plugging away.

If this has been officially authorised then I would have thought that a written contract has been made at some point. You should have a copy of this... or perhaps those that came in to the unit will have some sort of written record of this. You have to be open among your collegues and discuss this.

It is entirely possible that there has been a 'cull' of your personnel files to remove any such record but as I say one of you must have some sort of paperwork on it. Surely this is highlighted on payslips??????

If it has been paid for such a long period of time then and no official record was made of it then you will have to rely on a historic implied terms and condition to your contracts.

ANY change to working conditions MUST be discussed with those involved either personally or through a Union rep (and that does NOT mean the local rep who is probably not qualified to do so and 'in the pay' of the hospital) Get on to Union Regional HQ and get this issue discussed on a formal level ..... that is why they are there and why you pay your dues. These things must be done in writing and full disclosure followed.

thanks papasmurf,

this payment is on our payslip as unsocial enhancement as is all payment after 8pm,

but is not highlighted as after 1am to 8am,

the manager is adamant that there is no written record but i will make my own enquiries with payroll and HR,

i will get in touch with the unison area rep asap and take this forward,

we have three memebers of staff negotiating with the managers but are getting nowhere fast as they are determined to cut wages at any cost.

I will post any updates as they happen.

thanks

I am not quite clear as to why there is a difference between the enhanced rates after 8pm (night duty enhancement) and the 1 am to 8 am rate ? Why is it 'sleep time'? Is there a further enhancement after this time ie 1am? I am supposing that this only gets paid if an operation goes past 1am ie a time you should be off duty and at home asleep. Can you try and clarify this.

are you actually on duty during "sleep time" or is it that you are on call, or what is it?

Hi ,

our normal hours are from 8am to 6pm and we work 4 days per week,

but when we are rostered to do a late shift it starts at 2,30pm and we work untill midnight and we are paid an enhanced rate from 8pm till midnight,

if there is no other emergencies we go home but are on call from midnight till 8am the following day,

so if we do work from midnight till 8am this is technically our day off and the rest of the day you really need your bed,

so sleep time payment is to compensate you for having to spend your day off in bed.

hope that helps.

thanks for all your advice so far.

Not really.

What is the 1am to 8am rate paid at.

Are you saying that you get paid it in any event even if you don't work it?

if there is no work between 1am and 8 am we are paid a flat rate of £15.

It seems to me then that you have a good case. Even if there is no paperwork anywhere from any of the staff or the employer, then custom and practice dictates that they have paid you for the benefit of calling you should they need you, you are not free to do what you want, if you refused they would discipline you. The manager is probably trying to make savings and that is an easy target.

Hi,

i work at a major childrens hospital and we have to work on calls and weekends,

i have started working in an area where the other workers are not rostered on these shifts but i am expected to carry on working these on calls and weekends,

is this fair?

Any comments are very welcome

thanks.

might be. do they all have formal flexible working requests in place and you don't maybe?

what does the boss say?