Sant refuse to allow payments to registered payees unless I give a mobile number for them to send a OTP

I have a registered list of payees but S will not allow online payments without a mobile number.

The Ombudsman has said Sant can create any Ts&Cs it wishes and this is covered in new Ts&Cs.

FCA says S are not 'in breach'

I am seeking another way to contest this demand as it puts me at risk of IT attack because I cannot operate a mobile phone securely and also I consider that it is a 'harvesting tool' for S's benefit.

I have other accounts banks and brokers and none have demanded mobile numbers.

S declares it as a necessary safety requirement. but that is plainly untrue.

I am aware that I can change banks but that is to gift victory to Sant in a dispute that involves that section of folk who do not have a need or want of a mobile phone.

Surely there has been a long enough history of banks imposing restrictions on customers that benefit only the banks and dis benefit the customer. Can anyone offer guidance as to how to bring pressure on Sant to revise its policy.

what do you mean you cant operate it securely?

I mean that I personally do not have the ability to use a mobile phone without placing myself at some risk. Rellies have shown me - on their phones - that 'you can do this and this' but then 'oh no don't do that'. It seems to show that I would make errors and expose myself to threats that are ever present. The catalogue of how people have been deceived is endless and I don't want to join that list, particularly as I have no use for the undoubted benefits that are available to those who do have the requirement

Your landline number should be sufficient for a OTP, which are time limited or just buy a cheap mobile for you to receive the OTP only.

I've not tried this for Santander but if you use the current account switching service from a (donor) current account at another bank, direct debits and standing orders (setup to pay £1 two years in advance) will be transferred across. In some cases, your payees transfer also which bypasses the OTP requirement (to create them anyway). It works for other banks who use 2FA type additional security.

As suggest by others, setup all your payees with a burner phone and tell Santander you no longer have it as subsequent low value payments might not need additional OTP with existing payees.

You won't reverse Santander’s policy so the alternative is to leave as the trend is OTP even when your shopping with plastic cards.

https://www.santander.co.uk/uk/help-support/security-centre/our-approach-to-security

Thread title updated

Andy

Your landline number should be sufficient for a OTP, which are time limited or just buy a cheap mobile for you to receive the OTP only.

I didn't know it could work via landline - Sant never suggested that it would. Plus the fact that I am deaf and so I always set the landline to ansafone. Not likely they would put a OTP on a message.

Maybe they could leave a secure message on their 'SECURE MESSAGES SITE' but perhaps that's not secure either.

As I have said - I DO NOT WANT A MOBILE.

I do not see why I should be forced to by Sant just to continue using my account as I had until they changed their system. I am highly suspicious as to their actual reason for doing so. I believe it is for their marketing purposes

I've not tried this for Santander but if you use the current account switching service from a (donor) current account at another bank, direct debits and standing orders (setup to pay £1 two years in advance) will be transferred across. In some cases, your payees transfer also which bypasses the OTP requirement (to create them anyway). It works for other banks who use 2FA type additional security.

 

As suggest by others, setup all your payees with a burner phone and tell Santander you no longer have it as subsequent low value payments might not need additional OTP with existing payees.

You won't reverse Santander’s policy so the alternative is to leave as the trend is OTP even when your shopping with plastic cards.

I quite like that idea - is it known as lateral thinking? But I don't think it would work. Whenever I make any attempt to make a payment to any on my already established list of payees (created and approved at the branch) all I get is the message to register a mobile phone with Sant.

I agree that I will not reverse Sant's policy but maybe a number of similar complaints could bring that about.

I did receive a notice from Nationwide that they were going to introduce a similar scheme. I wrote to them registering disapproval and NW replied that they had received so many letters against that the scheme had been withdrawn.

My aim is to persuade some authority that Sant's policy is 'not treating customers fairly'

To me it seems self-evident that demanding that the customer acquire, learn and manage a new form of communication just to continue to use an existing account is certainly 'unfair'.

If they get away with this scheme unchallenged don't be surprised at what they will try next

 

I agree that I will not reverse Sant's policy but maybe a number of similar complaints could bring that about.

 

I've just tried Santander and can confirm active OTP is needed to use an existing payee.

The reasons for using OTP is that banks don't trust their customers (or anyone else).

Using a mobile leaves an additional trace to pin point who authorised the payment setup (mobile number, location of cells used, signal strength, phone IMIE, sim card number etc).

For anyone interested in this thread, I can tell you this security bypass using switching service works for (not specifically OTP banks):

M&S bank (HSBC) - Payees are transferred in the current account switch and low value payments don't need Secure Key/pass.

Lloyds bank/Halifax - transferred payees appear without phone authentication for payments.

RBS/Natwest - payees transferred but need card reader to make 1st payment.

As your hard of hearing, the bank has already made reasonable adjustments for you by providing online banking and OTP etc (with a cursory glance at the situation) so you couldn’t use the Equality act 2010 as a starting point. I know this will be a commercial decision but have you had a look at the FOS view of the matter by searching Santander OTP on http://www.ombudsman-decisions.org/ ?

With your legal and ADR options now numbered, moving business is your only choice.

 

I did receive a notice from Nationwide that they were going to introduce a similar scheme. I wrote to them registering disapproval and NW replied that they had received so many letters against that the scheme had been withdrawn.

 

They do, for card purchases but banks have been doing that informaly for years.

Using a mobile leaves an additional trace to pin point who authorised the payment setup (mobile number, location of cells used, signal strength, phone IMIE, sim card number etc).

I can't understand how all that info is available to them via a mobile and not available via a desktop at a single location used regularly by a single person.

As your hard of hearing, the bank has already made reasonable adjustments for you by providing online banking and OTP etc (with a cursory glance at the situation) so you couldn’t use the Equality act 2010 as a starting point.

Am I misinterpreting the meaning of 'online banking'. I took it as meaning via a PC using Broadband which I feel is what they have taken away. What is left for me is Telephone banking and is unsuitable (maybe it is me that's unsuitable)

I know this will be a commercial decision but have you had a look at the FOS view of the matter by searching Santander OTP on

I tried but my search produced 'no results' .. maybe because the decision has not been formally declared yet - only notified to the parties

With your legal and ADR options now numbered, moving business is your only choice.

Not quite the only choice...

I have alternative live accounts so I might be inclined to sit it out until they push me out. I think that may give a little more strength to my argument. I might also start a series of sending low value cheques to other accounts... they might then stop providing cheque books and that would lead to more complaints

How do I use One Time Passcode if I do not have mobile phone coverage?

OTP can only be used in conjunction with a registered mobile phone with network coverage. However, don't forget that the majority of commonly used online banking transactions do not require OTP. If you do not wish to use a mobile phone then you can still make a payment to a new recipient using your branch or telephone banking service. Once a new recipient is set up, subsequent payments to that recipient can be made online without OTP.

https://retail.santander.co.uk/Estatico/ALP_LOGSUK_Logon/Html/migracionv1_FAQ_RBS.html#s11

How do I use One Time Passcode if I do not have mobile phone coverage?

OTP can only be used in conjunction with a registered mobile phone with network coverage. However, don't forget that the majority of commonly used online banking transactions do not require OTP. If you do not wish to use a mobile phone then you can still make a payment to a new recipient using your branch or telephone banking service. Once a new recipient is set up, subsequent payments to that recipient can be made online without OTP.

 

I have presented that extract to Santander and the Ombudsman -- IT DOES NOT STAND

It appears they have inserted some clause into their Ts&Cs that overrides that statement.

On one occasion I went to branch and made 20 consecutive payments to exactly the same account, went home and could not make any payment without a OTP.

I maintain that is a false practice and should be stopped but the Ombudsman declares that they have covered themselves with revised Ts&Cs.

That is the essence of my complaint

And you have tried Telephone Banking Service ?

And you have tried Telephone Banking Service ?

Yes, when I had to -- it was a very uncomfortable experience both for me and the other person.

I have now removed most of the cash from Santander by paying with cheque into another bank.

How ridiculous is that. Sant used to be my main account through which I channeled all transactions and enabled me to see the cash flow situation at a glance and keep a check on incomes and outgoings, make irregular payments etc.

I'm getting a bit old with the usual shortcomings particularly bad hearing but I try to keep things simple to compensate for that.

Telephone conversations do not fit my requirements I need it on-screen or hard copy.

I have to say that I use the mobile banking far more than online banking as it is so easy to use but more importantly, the account is secured using their software. I appreciate that it is easy for some people will try and divert your phone number elsewhere or create a clone of your phone and then change it on the Santander website. This is not that easy online as the website shows an image and a phrase that has been set up when registering for online banking. The drawback to that is that with mobile banking, the image nor phrase are used.

I have not had any attempts on my account in all the years I have been with them (20+ years)

I agree that the OTP is sent by text message and I suppose that can be intercepted but the text itself will be of no use to anyone if they don't have your log in details already.

The unusual activity recognition used by Santander does work as it has happened to me except the unusual activity was me making four transactions in a very short time. My home phone and my mobile went off and asked me questions about my transactions where if I had said no to any question, my account would have been locked and I would have been diverted to the fraud team.

What I don't like about Santander (and other banks) is the Rapport software which is supposed to make your PC more secure. It screwed my PC up badly and I had to remove it and revert the PC to a previous state for it to work.

In essence, if you are uncomfortable about using the technology available to you, the only option I can see is that you visit your local branch and do it manually. All banks have different security for online banking. Card readers for Barclays. Other banks use voice recognition or facial recognition. It would be worth asking what help is available for people who have difficulty using online/mobile banking.

[silverfox1961;5161891]I have to say that I use the mobile banking far more than online banking as it is so easy to use but more importantly, the account is secured using their software. I appreciate that it is easy for some people will try and divert your phone number elsewhere or create a clone of your phone and then change it on the Santander website. This is not that easy online as the website shows an image and a phrase that has been set up when registering for online banking. The drawback to that is that with mobile banking, the image nor phrase are used.

That seems to make the case for using on-line rather than mobile.

I have not had any attempts on my account in all the years I have been with them (20+ years)

I agree that the OTP is sent by text message and I suppose that can be intercepted but the text itself will be of no use to anyone if they don't have your log in details already.

Again that favours on-line

The unusual activity recognition used by Santander does work as it has happened to me except the unusual activity was me making four transactions in a very short time. My home phone and my mobile went off and asked me questions about my transactions where if I had said no to any question, my account would have been locked and I would have been diverted to the fraud team.

And that was using a mobile?

What I don't like about Santander (and other banks) is the Rapport software which is supposed to make your PC more secure. It screwed my PC up badly and I had to remove it and revert the PC to a previous state for it to work.

I have heard of similar poor results -- so I have ignored the nags.

In essence, if you are uncomfortable about using the technology available to you, the only option I can see is that you visit your local branch and do it manually.

That rather makes a nonsense of their claiming to offer on-line banking. I was comfortable using the technology available to me, I'm not comfortable embarking on an alternative form of technology that I do not want or need and would open up a whole new set of ways for me to make errors.

When a kid is learning to ride a bike you might encourage him/her to try without stabilisers but you don't tell them to practice on the M25

All banks have different security for online banking. Card readers for Barclays. Other banks use voice recognition or facial recognition. It would be worth asking what help is available for people who have difficulty using online/mobile banking.

I'm OK with cardreaders.

I'm certain that Sant won't accomodate any other usage than mobile -- because I would then be less marketable.