Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

£6.99



Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Council tax debt - equita bailiffs clamped Mrs car

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgeball View Post
    So you are saying two married people living in the same property do not have a joint interest in their goods(furniture tv etc).

    Yes. Because two people are married and living together does not mean they have a beneficial interest in the goods the other person owns.



    As an example, a married couple exist, and they both own cars. They each saved for a car from their own wages, and paid for the car from their own bank account which is in the sole name of the car owner.



    The car belongs to the person who bought the car, it is not jointly owned.


    The husband has a credit card debt in his sole name and a CCJ, the bailiffs visit. There is no joint and several liability for the debt. The bailiff's clamp the wife's car. She proves she bought the car using a bank account in her sole name in to which her wages are paid, shows the receipt for the car and the bank statement, all in her name.



    Are you saying that the bailiffs can legally seize the car and auction it off to pay the husband's debt because he has a 'beneficial interest'? Because that is not the case, the husband has no beneficial interest and the car is not jointly owned.


  2. #22

    Default Re: Council tax debt - equita bailiffs clamped Mrs car

    We also should remember that the EA only has to believe that there is an interest, in the case of a married couple I think it would be difficult to prove he was at fault to hold such a belief.

    I also think that most marriages and partnerships contributeicon to jointly held property one way or another, not that this would be tested.


  3. #23

    Default Re: Council tax debt - equita bailiffs clamped Mrs car

    You are trying to dig too deep here, it is a simple , everything depends on the circumstances, the bailiffs initial reaction will be that jointly used property is indicative of a joint interest, this seems reasonable. If the debtor wants to challenge they can later in court, the EA will not be sanctioned for the belief.

    No one said anything about beneficial interest? Just common sense.

    If someone wants to argue that there live partner has no interest in there joint goods, please go ahead.

    Also again you are talking abput who is responsible for CT. That is not the issue, as far as the TCEA is concerned, it is about what is in the regs say, it may be anything a fine for instance. The TCEA is about enforcement, …...as repeatedly said


  4. #24

    Default Re: Council tax debt - who is responsible to pay

    a discussion thread is now created

    please post here not on the OP's thread now


  5. #25
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    Default Re: Council tax debt - equita bailiffs clamped Mrs car

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgeball View Post
    I also think that most marriages and partnerships contributeicon to jointly held property one way or another, not that this would be tested.

    I agree, and where goods are jointly owned there is a beneficial interest but marriageicon does not mean that all goods are jointly owned between spouses.


    All the non-debtor party whose goods were seized would need to do is show evidence that the goods aren't jointly owned but are solely owned and the goods should be released.


  6. #26

    Default Re: Council tax debt - equita bailiffs clamped Mrs car

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Goodfellow View Post
    I agree, and where goods are jointly owned there is a beneficial interest but marriageicon does not mean that all goods are jointly owned between spouses.


    All the non-debtor party whose goods were seized would need to do is show evidence that the goods aren't jointly owned but are solely owned and the goods should be released.
    Yes although that does not stop the goods being lawfully seized of course, and there is an issue of the amount of time goods were owned , it may be held that goods, even though initially bought by one party would become jointly owned over time and joint usage.
    Pretty much in the hands of the judge. On the death of one party, the goods ,unless otherwise stated would go to the other, beneficial interest?

    Perhaps this is an issue which all debtors should be aware of not just CT debtors, but it is something which they should keep in mind .


  7. #27

    Default Re: Council tax debt - equita bailiffs clamped Mrs car

    Quote Originally Posted by ss002d6252 View Post
    The OP has stated his partner is not resident at the property with him so she cannot be held jointly liable for the council tax charge on the property under s6 or s9 of the LGFA 1992. If she had been resident she would have been jointly liable under s6 or s9 (except in the case of an odd situation under s9 but there's nothing to suggest that applies here). It looks like the council took all this in account and the liability order is correctly against the OP.

    The above being said, the specific enforcement of the liability order by the enforcement agents is actioned separately to the legislation which lead up to the granting of the order. As can be seen in this case TACE (and it's surrounding legislation) does not always sit easily or nicely with council tax legislation.

    A couple living separately may well have intertwined interest in goods sufficient to satisfy Schedule 12 but a look at each and every situation would be needed to make the determination of ownership.
    Yes and it really is not a matter of the CT at all, but if there is evidence of co-ownership. perhaps section 85 claims would prove necessary to prove ownership or none ownership in this case.


  8. #28

    Default Re: Council tax debt - equita bailiffs clamped Mrs car

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan the cat View Post
    Hello everyone

    I had equita bailiffs clamp my Mrs car for my outstanding ctax bill.
    She showed them her v5, insurance etc but they said they needed a receipt of purchase (which she didn't have with her at the time but has since found) to prove it was hers. They clamped the car and said they'd be back in the morning.

    The police were called and allsorts.

    If they don't accept the v5, insurance (in her name I'm not even a named driver), mot and the purchase receipt
    can I just sit on the car and refuse to let them take it?

    I'm going to be putting a complaint in anyway.

    Thanks.
    Reading this, it may be there is a case for the EA to show a reasonable belief that the car was jointly owned, if the two parties were unattached it would be cut and dried that they did not. But it is possible in these circumstance's for both parties to have an interest because of their relationship, I would argue, and no matter who bought the car.

    I suppose until there is a case to clarify??


  9. #29
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    Default Re: Council tax debt - equita bailiffs clamped Mrs car

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgeball View Post
    Reading this, it may be there is a case for the EA to show a reasonable belief that the car was jointly owned, if the two parties were unattached it would be cut and dried that they did not. But it is possible in these circumstance's for both parties to have an interest because of their relationship, I would argue, and no matter who bought the car.

    I suppose until there is a case to clarify??
    Yep, until there's a case to clarify then it's open to interpretation and I can see why an enforcement agent would hold a reasonable belief until evidence shows otherwise.


  10. #30

    Default Re: Council tax debt - equita bailiffs clamped Mrs car

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Goodfellow View Post
    Yes. Because two people are married and living together does not mean they have a beneficial interest in the goods the other person owns.



    As an example, a married couple exist, and they both own cars. They each saved for a car from their own wages, and paid for the car from their own bank account which is in the sole name of the car owner.



    The car belongs to the person who bought the car, it is not jointly owned.


    The husband has a credit card debt in his sole name and a CCJ, the bailiffs visit. There is no joint and several liability for the debt. The bailiff's clamp the wife's car. She proves she bought the car using a bank account in her sole name in to which her wages are paid, shows the receipt for the car and the bank statement, all in her name.



    Are you saying that the bailiffs can legally seize the car and auction it off to pay the husband's debt because he has a 'beneficial interest'? Because that is not the case, the husband has no beneficial interest and the car is not jointly owned.
    .But you see,you are arguing against your own case here.

    You are saying, here is a situation where BI would not apply, and your right perhaps.

    However you imply by this that there must be situations where it does

    Who is to decide which is the case. Inthe final case it has to be a judg the bailiff is perfectly within his rights to excersze his belief untill that judgment is made, as it would turn on its own facts


  11. #31
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    Default Re: Council tax debt - who is responsible to pay

    Where a debtor does not jointly own goods but has X% equity invested in them or where the debtor has offered a secure loan against goods could be situations where a beneficial interest exists but not ownership.

    In a situation where a bailiff has taken control of goods which do not belong to the debtor, the owner can make a statutory declaration to have the goods released. The debtor can also make a complaint to the Civil Enforcement Association and/or the Local Government & Social Care Ombudsmanicon.

    Often threatening any of those actions will make the bailiff concede and remove a wheel clamp from a car which does not belong to the debtor, and it's usually obvious (even to bailiffs) when a person is lying about ownership.

    If a bailiff wanted to dig heals in and refuse, it would be hard to insist upon a reasonable belief once the owner has made a statutory declaration and an official complaint but a judge's decision would likely be the next step. Once the reasonable belief clause for the bailiff no longer exits, they are vulnerable to a damages claim.

    I doubt the bailiffs would push it that far unless they had solid proof of ownership.


  12. #32
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    Default Re: Council tax debt - who is responsible to pay

    There is a statutory scheme for third parties to claim goods that have controll taken of them. It does not involve nor require a statutory declaration nor an offical complaint. See part 85.4 and 85.5 og the Civil Procedure Rules. The wording gives the procedure and the timescales and can be found at this link and are pasted below:-

    https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pr...executed-goods

    Procedure for making a claim to controlled goods


    85.4

    (1) Any person making a claim under paragraph 60(1) of Schedule 12 must, as soon as practicable but in any event within 7 days of the goods being removed under the exercise of an enforcement power, give notice in writing of their claim to the enforcement agent who has taken control of the goods ('the notice of claim to controlled goods') and must include in such notice—


    (a) their full name and address, and confirmation that such address is their address for service;


    (b) a list of all those goods in respect of which they make such a claim; and


    (c) the grounds of their claim in respect of each item.


    (2) On receipt of a notice of claim to controlled goods which complies with paragraph (1) the enforcement agent must within 3 days give notice of such claim to—


    (a) the creditor; and


    (b) any other person making a claim to the controlled goods under paragraph (1) ('any other claimant to the controlled goods');


    (3) The creditor, and any other claimant to the controlled goods, must, within 7 days after receiving the notice of claim to controlled goods, give notice in writing to the enforcement agent informing them whether the claim to controlled goods is admitted or disputed in whole or in part.


    (4) The enforcement agent must notify the claimant to the controlled goods in writing within 3 days of receiving the notice in paragraph (3) whether the claim to controlled goods is admitted or disputed in whole or in part.


    (5) A creditor who gives notice in accordance with paragraph (3) admitting a claim to controlled goods is not liable to the enforcement agent for any fees and expenses incurred by the enforcement agent after receipt of that notice by the enforcement agent.


    (6) If an enforcement agent receives a notice from a creditor under paragraph (3) admitting a claim to controlled goods the following applies—


    (a) the enforcement power ceases to be exercisable in respect of such controlled goods; and


    (b) as soon as reasonably practicable the enforcement agent must make the goods available for collection by the claimant to controlled goods if they have been removed from where they were found.


    (7) Where the creditor, or any other claimant to controlled goods to whom a notice of claim to controlled goods was given, fails, within the period mentioned in paragraph (3), to give the required notice, the enforcement agent may seek—


    (a) the directions of the court by way of an application; and


    (b) an order preventing the bringing of any claim against them for, or in respect of, their having taken control of any of the goods or having failed so to do.

    Back to top


    Procedure for making a claim to controlled goods where the claim is disputed


    85.5

    (1) Where a creditor, or any other claimant to controlled goods to whom a notice of claim to controlled goods was given, gives notice under rule 85.4(3) that the claim to controlled goods, or any part of it, is disputed, and wishes to maintain their claim to the controlled goods, the following procedure will apply.


    (2) The claimant to controlled goods must make an application which must be supported by—


    (a) a witness statement—


    (i) specifying any money;


    (ii) describing any goods claimed; and


    (iii) setting out the grounds upon which their claim to the controlled goods is based; and


    (b) copies of any supporting documents that will assist the court to determine the claim.

    (3) In the High Court the claimant to controlled goods must serve the application noticeicon and supporting witness statements and exhibits on—


    (a) the creditor;


    (b) any other claimant to controlled goods of whom the claimant to controlled goods is aware; and


    (c) the enforcement agent.


    (4) In the county courticon when the application is made the claimant to controlled goods must provide to the court the addresses for service of—


    (a) the creditor;


    (b) any other claimant to controlled goods of whom the claimant to controlled goods is aware; and


    (c) the enforcement agent,


    ('the respondents'), and the court will serve the application noticeicon and any supporting witness statement and exhibits on the respondents.


    (5) An application under paragraph (2) must be made to the court which issued the writ or warrant conferring power to take control of the controlled goods, or, if the power was conferred under an enactment, to the debtor’s home court.


    (6) The claimant to controlled goods must make the required payments on issue of the application in accordance with paragraph 60(4)(a) of Schedule 128, unless such claimant seeks a direction from the court that the required payment be a proportion of the value of the goods, in which case they must seek such a direction immediately after issue of the application, on notice to the creditor and to the enforcement agent.


    (7) The application notice will be referred to a Master or District Judge.


    (8) On receipt of an application for a claim to controlled goods, the Master or District Judge may—


    (a) give directions for further evidence from any party;


    (b) list a hearing to give directions;


    (c) list a hearing of the application;


    (d) determine the amount of the required payments, make directions or list a hearing to determine any issue relating to the amount of the required payments or the value of the controlled goods;


    (e) stay, or dismiss, the application if the required payments have not been made;


    (f) make directions for the retention, sale or disposal of the controlled goods;


    (g) give directions for determination of any issue raised by a claim to controlled goods.


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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Council tax debt - who is responsible to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by E Munch View Post
    There is a statutory scheme for third parties to claim goods that have controll taken of them. It does not involve nor require a statutory declaration nor an offical complaint. See part 85.4 and 85.5 og the Civil Procedureicon Rules. The wording gives the procedure and the timescales and can be found at this link and are pasted below:-

    https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pr...executed-goods
    That is the long-term solution once a court order is required. But in the short-term, the bailiffs have clamped a car and they can potentially tow it away after two hours. It's preferable to get the clamp removed before that stage.


  14. #34

    Default Re: Council tax debt - who is responsible to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Goodfellow View Post
    That is the long-term solution once a court order is required. But in the short-term, the bailiffs have clamped a car and they can potentially tow it away after two hours. It's preferable to get the clamp removed before that stage.
    With respect, think you lose sight of what Bailiffs do for a living and the powers under which they operate.
    They do not seize other peoples cars at a whim, what would be the point?
    There are penalties for a bailiff who takes goods which he does not believe to be the "property" of the debtor, and how would this satisfy the creditor?

    As Mr M says there are procedures in place within the legislation.

    AS for your other claims, I am afraid you are factually incorrect in all those assertions. I will not go into that, fortunately most on here recognise these misconceptions and are aware of their source. I don't think further clarification is required there.


  15. #35
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    Default Re: Council tax debt - who is responsible to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgeball View Post
    With respect, think you lose sight of what Bailiffs do for a living and the powers under which they operate.
    They do not seize other peoples cars at a whim, what would be the point?
    Initially, bailiffs clamp a lot of cars which do not belong to the debtor, possibly in the belief that they do or purely for leverage to get the debtor to pay under that pretence. You underestimate the tactics which bailiffs use to secure payment.

    I'm not sure which other claims that you think are factually incorrect or which source they come from, I am referring to real life situations, not theoretical.


  16. #36

    Default Re: Council tax debt - who is responsible to pay

    How would immobilising someone else's car get the debtor to pay? Mistakes are made of course, but as said remedy is included within the TCE.
    We both know that this is not the reason the vast majority of such complaints are made and so do the courts.


  17. #37

    Default Re: Council tax debt - who is responsible to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgeball View Post
    How would immobilising someone else's car get the debtor to pay?
    When bailiffs clamp a car on lease? If bailiffs were to do this now, could that breach GDPRicon?


  18. #38

    Default Re: Council tax debt - who is responsible to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by lookinforinfo View Post
    When bailiffs clamp a car on lease? If bailiffs were to do this now, could that breach GDPRicon?
    I don't see how, cars on lease cannot be taken control of, as the debtor has no financial interest in them of course, if the owner were on site it should be easy enough for him to prove.

    If for some reason no proof was forthcoming the bailiff would be free to take control, if he was of the opinion etc.

    Since his action is permitted under the warrant and a court/enactment etc. It would be difficult to see how any other action could be brought under any other enactment.

    He is doing his job as per the TCE.


  19. #39
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    Default Re: Council tax debt - who is responsible to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgeball View Post
    How would immobilising someone else's car get the debtor to pay? Mistakes are made of course, but as said remedy is included within the TCE.
    We both know that this is not the reason the vast majority of such complaints are made and so do the courts.
    Bailiffs clamp cars which do not belong to the debtor regularly. If it is on the driveway of the debtor it is fair game but often belongs to a partner, parent, friend etc., and bailiffs often demand proof of ownership before removing the clamp.

    It's a widely used tactic and debtors often pay up so that bailiffs remove the clamp.


  20. #40

    Default Re: Council tax debt - who is responsible to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Goodfellow View Post
    Bailiffs clamp cars which do not belong to the debtor regularly. If it is on the driveway of the debtor it is fair game but often belongs to a partner, parent, friend etc., and bailiffs often demand proof of ownership before removing the clamp.
    It's a widely used tactic and debtors often pay up so that bailiffs remove the clamp.
    it is for the debtor to prove the ownership of goods.


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