Followed previous advice for others in the same boat.

Aos submitted on 30th.

I presume ONLY 9 days left to send in defence.

1 Date of the infringement 08/10/17

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 22/11/17

3 Date received Not received as was out of country. Have passport stamp as proof.

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [y/n?] No

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? yes

6 Have you appealed? {y/n?] post up your appeal] no

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up No

7 Who is the parking company? VCS

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] St Marys Gate retails park. Sheffield

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. IPC

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here DRP,LBC,CC

My mother was issued the second PCN on 21st Dec 17 due to non response to the first but received first week of january 18 probably due to holidays. Unfortunately she came across the letter on last date of appeal.

Both my parents are elderly and classified as disabled due to their various ailments.

The letter stated that she had no right of appeal but can give mitigating circumstances but before the last date.

After that received a couple of debt collectors letter, LBC in July and now CC claim as mentioned above.

To begin with they had idea where the location of the infraction was.

As it is with some elderly people in their 80s some memory loss is inevitable.

Im half their age and feel what they do.

we finally figured out the area with help of this forum.

They don't take the blue badge liberties for granted but in their understanding this parking area was towards a side where there was no signage.

My mother requires constant attention as she is prone to falling and my father missed any signage.

As per their understanding blue badge holders are given some margin.

They also had their grandchildren with them at the time who are a handfull.

Unfortunately my mother did suffer a nasty fall and as was incapacitated for quite a while. My father took her back home in taxi instead as the area was closed to other cars. The only witness that can attest to this is my father and probably the GP.

As she has had knee and shoulder replacement done she's kept under check.

My father retrieved the car according to the ANPR after a stay of 150 mins whereas the time limit was 60 mins.

I came across a similar post where I understood that the PCN didn't comply with being served in time.

I hope that is the case.

As they themselves have stated the exact dates on the PCN.

The second PCN seemed as if they wanted it to reach the very last date so that out of fear one should pay up.

I now request all the gurus to guide me in drawing up a suitable defence.

I hope I don't let my mother down as i took responsibility to sort it out as to be honest its just not something they could have dealt with given the situation and due to this forum I feel she has a chance. Its also ridiculously expensive for a pensioner.

Thank you and hoping for a favourable reply.

Hello and welcome to CAG. I expect the gurus will be along over the course of the day to advise you.

What day you think your defence needs to be submitted please?

Best, HB

Date on the claim form please...AoS date is irrelevant in working out your correct defence date.

Andy

@Andyorch

Date of issue CCF: 16/08/18

Sorry I was under the impression the Defendant had 14 days from date of submission of AoS.

Thanks for the reply and taking interest!

Monday the 17th your defence is due by 4.00pm

You do get a further 14 days...but you can acknowledge claim anytime within the 19 days from the date on the claim...so the your AoS date does not check the 33 days...the issuance date does.

Andy

If your parents are sure that there was no ticket on the windscreen on the day nor does one show on the photographs of the car then the NTK is useless as it has been timed out-they only have 14 days to get it to you.

Please do not write to them yet wait until we know the full extent of the mess they are in.

can you please complete this:

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?465231-Received-a-Court-Claim-From-A-Private-parking-Speculative-invoice-How-To-Deal-With-It-HERE***Updated-Aug-2016***

so YOU have the correct info on what to do and when

and we have the correct info to advise you.

have you sent cpr yet?

if not get it running tomorrow

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486334-CPR-31.14-Request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-PPC-(-Private-Land-Parking-Court-Claim)

thread title updated

who is the keeper of the vehicle?

are we talking about more than one event?

@Andy- thank you!

@lookingfor- None. Neither on the day, hence they didn't even realise they had such an issue.And neither do the pictures i checked online show any..ANPR PCN NTK was issued 45 days after incident.

@ericsbro- only one event ever. my mother is the keeper.

@DX100- thank you. Going to do it now. The second link is brill!

Name of the Claimant?Vehicle Control Services ltd Sheffield.

Authorised by claimant- signed by Simon Ren-smith (claimant)

Date of issue – 16/08/18

What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim?

1.The Claimant’s claim is the sum of 150 being monies due from the Defendant to the Claimant in respect of a Charge Notice(CN) for a contravention on 07/10/17 at St Mary’s Gate Retail Park Car Park (Sheffield). The CN relates to a XXXX under registration xxxx.

2.The terms of the CN allowed the defendant 28 days from the Issue Date to pay the CN, but the Defendant failed to do so. Despite demand having being made the Defendant has failed to settle their outstanding liability.

3.The claimant seeks recovery of the CN and interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% at the same rate up to the date of Judgment or earlier payment.

What is the value of the claim?- 175

Has the claim been issued by the Private parking Company or was the PCN assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim?

Issued by private parking company. First PCN NTK, second PCN, LBC and now CCCF.

Please note:

AoS submission 30/08/18-Defending all of claim.

Last date for submission of defence-17/09/18

Filled to the best of my understanding. Im going to finalise the second link now. It'll be addressed to the signing authority with address of VCS?

just send it to VCS as is

so regarding the service of the NTK, you say you were out of the country

- as your mother is the keeper was she out of the country?

As you are presumably dealing with this on her behalf do not refer to yourself at all but refer to your mother in the first person so when you say I you are referring to her as it will be her who is being sued as the keeper/alleged driver at the time.

This is important so we can ensure that all the right things are done.

Do you still have the NTK, if so can you post it up with personal details redacted and all bar codes etc removed.

VCS dont use the POFA but then tell lies to court so we need to know where to start picking holes in thier claim

why do you keep talking about 2nd PCN

this claim is for ONE PCN, so they've received 2 but only one is being litigated on to date?

or are you mixing your abbreviations here.

we need to see the NTK in relation to the stated PCN on the claimform please

scan it up to PDF

read upload

Gosh...so sorry to confuse the issue. Im looking at things from my end instead of yours.

Im doing this for my mother. She was out of the country.

Only one contravention occurred. By the second PCN means the final reminder sent as my mother didn't not take any action towards the initial PCN NTK (never received)

'As you are presumably dealing with this on her behalf do not refer to yourself at all but refer to your mother in the first person so when you say I you are referring to her as it will be her who is being sued as the keeper/alleged driver at the time'

Thank you. I shall be extremely careful when answering the claimant.

She does not have the initial PCN NTK, only the PCN-Final reminder which states that she was issued NTK. I can upload the Final reminder only. I checked the evidence on myparkingcharge.

This is not uncommon and VCS will produce a copy and the court will have to accept their word that they sent it even though they seem to lose a lot of their letters in the post and all of their screen tickets somehow get removed by unauthorised persons before the driver has a chance to see it.

A cynic would say this is done deliberately so they dont have to offer a discount as you can never respond within the discount period and it also makes it harder to use the POFA to show their NTK is defective ( they had 4 years worth of court losses before they started having trouble with the post and then the good times rolled.)

When did they claim they issued the NTK as that date will be on the reminder.

It would also be worth her asking the DVLA who accessed her keeper details and WHEN, that will tell you somethig as VCS have a sister company and if it wasn't the right entity again you have them banged to rights and grounds for a counterclaim.

Next thing will be to send the a CPR 31.14 request for documents and you ask for sight of the contarct between the landowner and VCS that assigns the right to enter into contracts with the public and to make civil claims in their own name.

Again they often confuse VCS with Excel or have out of date contracst that mean they cant sue and win.

Also they often sign a deal with a managemnt co or bod who has no authority to sign away the landowners rights so ask the Valuations Agency or local council who owns the land. This wont be the occupiers

According to the PCN Final Reminder

- A Parking Contravention was detected and recorded by ANPR cameras at the site specified above.

The reason is for the contravention is specified above

i.e. 80)Parked for longer than the maximum period permitted.

Contravention date 08/10/17

The driver of the above vehicle is liable for the parking charge.

...this charge relates to the period of parking including remaining at the car park site between entry and exit times specified in this Notice..

..incurred for the reason stated and liability

..having been brought to the attention of the driver by clear signage in and around the site.

.Photographic evidence and data on file to support in accordance with DPA 1998.

View evidence.

.if you consider information has been obtained inappropriately.

.complain to Information commissioner.

A Notice to keeper was issued to you,

registered keeper of vehicle by post on 22/11/17

...records indicate no response.

It is now too late for you to appeal as the timescale has elapsed..

. may consider a late appeal.

..payment due 100 within 14 days no later than 04/01/18.

Important Note. If not paid or appropriate response not received by 04/01/18 we will pursue you..

@ericsbro,

they have admitted themselves that they issued the NTK 45 days after the Contravention date,

it was an ANPR ticket and no windscreen ticket(and seriously there was none,otherwise wouldn't have left it to go this far)

All the letters receive are about "pay up or else" never considering the impact it may have on a vulnerable adult.

to be honest I was so close to not defending this and my mother was so scared that she offered to pay but then a google search brought me to this forum.

My mothers doctor and my father can give witness statements.

Do you think a simple letter now, not giving away defence points sent to PPC, just explaining the circumstances,offering to pay court costs would help to show the judge she tried or them giving this up?

I will indeed get in touch with the DVLA,

so if VCS didn't ask them but one of their sister companies like EXCEL did,

does that go against them?

I believe VCS will not send me the documents for CPR 31.14 within 14 days and I have just 10 days left to file a defence.

With regards to asking the landowners/valuation agency/local council,

why would they be inclined to answer my query (also the fact that I've no idea how to figure who the landowner is).

In your experience do you feel that PPC cares enough about CPR 31.14 to not then pursue the claim?

local 99% of what you are asking is already covered in 1000's of thread here

go read some.

pop onto your local councils website

planning permission section

find the PP for the signs and the ANPR equipment IF it exists and WHO got it

find the original planning consent for the complex - the should tell you the current owner of the land

find out if VCS has a CURRENT parking contract.

they don't have to respond to your REQUEST

but they must produce all the paperwork they intend to rely upon at the disclosure [witness statement] stage.

that doesn't mean you get statements from anyone

YOU are the witness [well you are pretending to be her in all / any correspondence/response]

as you say, NTK issued too late so no keeper liability. How did she offer to pay? by phone? If so that wont have created a liability.

Now when it comes to a court hearing you can attend with her as her lay rep and speak on her behalf.

Chances are VCS wont actually get to court but will do anything to get her to settle up to the day beforehand so keep an eye on the calendar for the relevant dates and if they are late with anything then you slap in a complaint to the court and ask for the claim to be dismissed.

Now this will probably not cause any such action but the letters will go in the judge's file so when they read it the first thing they will want to know is why is such a prolific litigant screwing things up and the quality of their answer may very well make it the last they get to say.

It really isn't that scary, a bit more like an interview and nothing like a trial you see on the telly.

Get all your paperwork nicely sorted and take copies of everything you can think of.

Dont bother mentioning vulnerable people, doctors etc, that will get you sympathy but is completely irrelevant to the law.

You cant murder people just because you have a bad leg so if you are mentally fit enough to make decisions without the court of protections say so then you can be responsible for this. however this is for the future.

and yes, do complain to the information commissioner as they have no reason to access keeper details after the 12 days allowed to create keeper liability under the POFA so they lied to the DVLA and broke that contract and cannot assume the keeper was the driver as the section of the Road Traffic Act they like to quote isn't applicable on private land

"as you say, NTK issued too late so no keeper liability. How did she offer to pay? by phone? If so that wont have created a liability."

No. I meant now at this point so if they think its a losing case they'll just back off.

sorry for not being clear.

I guess not a good idea as that will confirm liability.

Brilliant.

Thank you so much.

I feel so much more confident.

You guys are very kind.

Thank you.

Ill be back soon!

Nothing in the planning applications pertaining to the car park,signage, anpr...200-202 Eyre Street (address of Deli Theatre and Office outlet , occupiers of the complex)

The only signage permission has been taken by Office which was previously staples.

The planning consent is for the elevation,floors etc but not act the car park.

first taken in 94 and then in 2008 by two separate entities

. I did a google search it seems like the retail park was advertised by Harry Spack Field.

I think i should ask them as the landowners?

who they gave the car management to?

and request the contract?

I hope I'm doing this right.

. Ive also asked a former council employee to help find out.

you can ask the Vlauations Agency or the local council, both have an interest by way of business rates.

you wont gte a response from the landowner because they will sense that you may try and bite their bum over this but it can nevrr hurt to ask

Update:

Cpr 31.14- awaiting (recorded delivery)

DVLA data request- awaiting

Planning consent signage/contract for parking management info- awaiting

Found PCN NTK in junk mail- uploaded

Pictures of signage in car park- No signage in entire area of disabled parking

Need to prepare defence to submit by 17/09/18

Gone through the defence template and need advice.. will paste in next post shortly.

Signage pictures of parking lot.

No signs anywhere near the disabled parking or near the entrance.

Seems like they want disabled badge holders to incur parking charge.

Valid file for viewing..

SIGNAGE.pdf

just use the two line one

"It is denied that the Claimant has complied with Schedule 4, Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 paragraph 9(5). The Notice to keeper failed to reach within 14 days of contravention date."

Is this enough?

1.The Claimant’s claim is the sum of 150 being monies due from the Defendant to the Claimant in respect of a Charge Notice(CN) for a contravention on 07/10/17 at St Mary’s Gate Retail Park Car Park (Sheffield). The CN relates to a XXXX under registration xxxx.

2.The terms of the CN allowed the defendant 28 days from the Issue Date to pay the CN, but the Defendant failed to do so. Despite demand having being made the Defendant has failed to settle their outstanding liability.

3.The claimant seeks recovery of the CN and interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% at the same rate up to the date of Judgment or earlier payment.

1. It is admitted that Defendant is the recorded keeper of [motor vehicle].

2. It is denied that the Claimant has complied with Schedule 4, Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Para 9(5), the Notice to Keeper was issued 45 days after the date of contravention and not within the stipulated period of 14 days.

3. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all."

My last date for submission of defence is tomorrow 17.09.18. I hope to send this tonight.

Please advise me if the above is correct..

Thank you