Hello everyone.

I'm seeking guidance on an invoice attached to my windscreen on 13/08/2018.

I failed to display so ended up coming here for that mistake.

I have not made any contact and I have already filled in the following.

1 The date of infringement? 13/08/2018

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?] No

If you haven't appealed yet - ,.........

have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days]

what date is on it

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? No NTK received yet

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?]

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process?

[it is well known that parking companies will reject any appeal whatever the circumstances]

5 Who is the parking company? AS PARKING LTD

6. where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? BLUFF INN, Hayle, Cornwall

PCN1_P&D6.compressed.pdf

so I like the bit where their operator has said that they were hanging around for 5 mins but have failed to say what time of day that was and have missed the point entirely regarding a 10 minute grace period!

However, as they are IPC members the law of theland doesnt apply to them as Will and John who own the IPC and Gladstones sols have superpowers and will win the day for them regradless (not).

Now,

is this a pub car park as suggested

or is it a P&D where the public are invited to clog up someones land to the detriment?

Were you on holiday there or is it local to you.

If the latter then some pictures of the entrance to the land and of their signage would be most useful.

AS are very parochial having a number of sites in Cornwall but the owner never ventures far from home so if you live miles away he wouldnt attend a court session and that may to your advantage.

Dont respond to the ticket but wait for them to send the NTK and post that up here so we can advise on its ability to create a liability under the POFA.

many companies get it so wrong that they actually do away with their chances of claiming from the driver, let alone the keeper

The time is stated on the PCN but I edited out this time and typed in 5 minutes as I was not sure if posting a specific time would identify the notice (my appologies, I should have typed in a different colour/typeface).

I was on holiday there, and I live roughly 300 miles away in the midlands, so around a 5 hour drive with good traffic.

This is a P&D car park at the Bluff Inn.

I can google a generic picture and confirm the signs are the same, The sign to the entrance is the 5th and 6th picture in the posted PDF and it is between 2 gaps in a wall that are both entrances and exit with no posted direction of travel.

So no concessions for their faulty equipment?

Well that is an unfair contract, if you paid the money and didnt get a ticket they have failed to perform to the contract and cant enforce it and you dont have to go elsewhere.

that would be enough to void the whole contract under S 62 of the Consumer Rights Act.

As an aside their signs are all different so could be considered confusing

I note that they all carry the same clauses but the sign at the entrance doesnt carry the core terms of the contract so is an "invitation to treat" and that means that a contract ONLY accepted when you feed the meter having accepted the terms.

That doesnt prevent you parking and not accepting the terms, you are then trespassing and would have to leave if you were asked to but AS or the pub landlord didnt ask you to do that.

ultimately the vehicle was not observed at 2 times that were more than 10 minutes apart so AS dont know if you had gone into the pub to ask for change (perfectly acceptable reason for being there as part of the grace period)

Now AS arent going to let these inconveniences of the law being your friend stand in the way of making a few quid so even if you write to them to tell them they are wrong they wont take any notice.

Thankyou for the information.

Up to them if they take no notice, Hopefully if I need to eventually write to them, I have no issues whatsoever with letting them know there will be a full defence in court!

As for now, I await the NTK.

Yep, they are likely to scrw up so keeping quiet for the moment allows them the maximum chance of doing so.

I just had a look at AS Parking appeals.

Question and answer 3 surprised me a bit.

Q. “I was getting change to buy a ticket, will you cancel the charge?”

A. There is no period of free parking, motorists are required to have sufficient change with them BEFORE arrival; appeals submitted on this basis will not be granted under any circumstances.

It's a little funny and unbelieveable to me that they can mislead this way but I can see it can be quite offputting to someone who's thining about appealing.

I believe some of the information on the appeals page of their site is complete Tripe!

If not all.

If this is cornwall and one company, I can't imagine what the others like for the rest of the country

.

Are they all as bad as each other I wonder?

simple ans is yes!!

If they allowed successful appeal they wouldnt get any money so they invent things that arent true so they cant pull the wool over people's eyes.

you already know about the grace period and the fact that they didn't observe your vehicle at 2 times more than 10 mins apart but as they are IPC members the law doesnt apply because Will and John who own that entity have superpowers that entitle them to say anying they want with impunity.

Funny that the courts dont agree with that though, they tend to apply the law as it is and then the parking co's foot the bill because they listened to a pair of snake oil salesmen when deciding which ATA to join.

One of the reasons we avoid going to Cornwall as besides trying to rip you off on cost of goods, they try it on with parking on private and council land and the fess are ridiculous!

Hi

Just looked at the IPC code of practice and they state that a 'reasonable' time be allowed before issuing a ticket but they don't specify any amount of minutes. Obviously that doesn't bother the IPC as they will ignore their own guidance and reject your appeal.

I would do nothing and only react if a Letter Before Claim/Action arrives

agree. sit tight until you get the ntk and then tell us exactly what it says. They usually get than wrong thus destroying their chances of winning any battle

I also just checked on the IPC operators code of practice it does give a time of 10 minutes for leaving - and a

"sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site"

.... surely this would take 10 minutes minimum if not longer, - this must take longer than to simply exit the car park after paying for which they allow 10 minutes!

IPC code of practice states:

15. Grace Periods

15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.

15.2 Drivers must be allowed a minimum period of 10 minutes to leave a site after a pre-paid or permitted period of parking has expired.

15.3 The reference to 10 minutes in 15.2 above shall not apply where the period of pre-paid or permi ed parking does not exceed 1 hour providing that the signage on the site makes it clear to the motorist, in a prominent font, that no grace period applies on that land.

the IPC dont stick to their own rules so no poinmt argyuing this with them. save it for later if it goes further

So here it is. The NTK. Just what I've been waiting for. Arrived Saturday but only just got round to scanning and editing.

Something happened to the images when scanning and editing so the as parking logo fails to display properly but the information in the document is intact.

AS PARKING.pdf

I wonder if they would accept 100 euros as payment?

also amount aoutstanding shows as ei 00.00 so nothing to pay. Look at the 1 in the euro amount, it has a serif on it as ones do. The outstanding amount clearly doesnt so is an i.

What to do? sit on this until the 8th Oct as ling as they dont resend the NTK and you are home and dry as you will have paid the invoiced amount, namely zero. An honest demand at last!

Another alternative is to ask your bank for a euro cheque and send it mkde out for nothing, keeping a copy for your records. You will then be able to show the invoice paid in full and if they alter the cheque then you have reasosn to report them to the police for fraud.

By tyhe way, they are admitting they are ignoring the 10 minute grace period as well so theoretically they could get a black mark from the IPC. In reality they will get as much of a telling off as the well know Russian tourist, Mr Petrov will from Putin.

I wonder if they would accept 100 euros as payment?

also amount aoutstanding shows as ei 00.00 so nothing to pay. Look at the 1 in the euro amount, it has a serif on it as ones do. The outstanding amount clearly doesnt so is an i.

What to do? sit on this until the 8th Oct as ling as they dont resend the NTK and you are home and dry as you will have paid the invoiced amount, namely zero. An honest demand at last!

Another alternative is to ask your bank for a euro cheque and send it mkde out for nothing, keeping a copy for your records. You will then be able to show the invoice paid in full and if they alter the cheque then you have reasosn to report them to the police for fraud.

Let me get back to you on this. The ntk does have it as a £ sign but this data changed when editing. Let me do it again and see if I can better it. Alternatively I can pm you the original unedited scan.

The main point doesnt change, the 10 minute grace period.

BTW dont edit documents and post them up, scan them and redact the personal information so we see a true copy or you make fools of all of us.

Ok I have used a different method this time and seemed to have worked better. Attached is the document scanned and redacted.

Download_File_Edited.pdf

You may have accidentally used OCR when scanning the forms. This does not detract from the fact that you stayed for 5 minutes and 31 seconds, well below the 10 minute grace period that the IPC code of practice states so I would do nothing and let them shoot themselves if they decide on court action.

thats better. Lesson for all of us.

You still have a weapon to use, namely contacting the inn and asking them to get AS to drop the matter.

Dont use email, try telephone first and invite them to instruct AS to cancel charge No xxxxxxx or write a letter stating that as the keeper of vehicle (reg) you got a letter demanding the money and this is inbreach of the trade association rules and it reflects badly on their business that they employ people who are happy to engage in such fraud and it will drag them down into disrepute etc.

If they dont then you put a factual review on the various sites like tripadvisor to warn others they employ a buch of bandits to tax the unwary potential customers.

Only after that should you consider other options.

also, from the little I can see on google spyonyourneighbour the signage is absolute pants.

2 signs at the entrance neither of them saying anything about a charge for being there.

The writing on the one that doesnt say P no hgv's is too small to read so hard to consider it at all when driving past it.

As there appears to be a ticket machine then that means the blurb on that is the arbiter of what is a contract but if you didnt feed it you didnt agree to be bound by it anyway so just a trespasser and that is nowt to do with AS

I have yesterday received another letter thats to be treated as a final warning to pay before recovery steps.

I did try to contact the bluff but there is no answer to the phone and there doesn't seem to be an e-mail address for them to ask if they are open.

I have tried contacting the Haven holiday site that the Bluff inn Belongs to but they are closed until March 2019 so I can only assume the pub is too.

I have not tried calling on what would be thought of as busy nights though Fri/Sat.

So I assume I am still not to respond to AS Parking yet?

until or unless you get a letter of/before claim from a fake/tame paper only solicitor you ignore everything

Thanks, I'll keep waiting.