Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

£6.99



Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #1
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    Default Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    I am a landlord, I did think this might go into the lettings forum, however I think it could be a general legal issue relating to contracts.

    We have a joint and several tenancy agreement for tenancy due to start next month, students. (Downloaded from National Landlords Association so hopefully current. Note my LL NLA membership has lapsed but they do keep giving me free access to the document libraryicon as an ex member)

    One tenant wants to exit the agreement and has been very helpful in finding a replacement T. The other T's are happy with the new T so wish to employ a "deed of transfer" document, which I have used a few times before and have the latest version also from the NLA.

    My problem is that all the T's are scattered across the globe, until after the tenancy starts - Europe, Asia, Uk and Canada.

    In my work capacity in the past (EU funded research projects) I have been involved with collating signatures to contracts by sending the whole contract and asking the co signatories to sign their own copy and return, on the EU advice that this was fine and we just collated the signature pages of each contract to make a master document.

    I can easily get three of the 6 T's in the UK to sign the same document, but is it OK to get the others in Europe Asia and Canada to print out and sign effectively a separate identical document and scan and email back to me as per the EU research projects example above?

    I could wait but I am a bit anxious about the tenancy starting without this being fixed.
    Also the T's, new, existing and old want to get it fixed too as finding someone later on (ie a month after clearing) is more difficult.


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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    Popped you in residential as more knowledgeable people frequent here

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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    No new Tenancy can arise until the first joint T occupies, until then there is only a verbal Agreement to 'supply/occupy'.


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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    Well the first joint T will be there on 1st day, others soon after, its the three others who are travelling. Plus resorting to voiding a tenancy is not my style, I don't find that approach constructive. We have all the pieces in place we all just want to get docs sorted asap. Do you know if my proposal to get separate signed copies will hold water?


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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    Are they jointly and severally responsible? If so you get them to sign when they arrive and until they do the tenants already there bear all of the risk.


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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    Yes, hence the reason why all of tenants want to get it signed before anyone arrives. It is about minimising risk. I do not want to be in a situation where I have to chase tenants to pay for someone else's rent, that is still a risk.


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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    but that is THEIR risk, not yours.
    If this question was the other way round and it was a prospective tenat asking about liabilities I would warn them they become liable for all of the rent if the others do a runner so as they have agreed to share the risk

    i would be letting them know that if all of the tenants dont turn up at the beginning of the academic year then those that do will be paying the full whack until they find someone else to move in.
    Not at all unusual


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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    I think it is very much my risk.

    This is about pragmatism/practicalities.
    They are much less likely to pay someone else rent, or at least they may put up a fight, then there is the risk of court or whatever, these things are not always cut and dried. I would prefer not to engineer a situation where I increase the chances of that happening, it could take months. The contract signed serves as a pressure to get everyone in line.

    I have been a landlord since 2001, I have lost the equivalent of a single tenants 2 months rent in 17 years being cautious and not allowing these situations to develop. I am not going to wade into a risky situation if there is a simple way round it. You may sleep well at night by feeling that you can just sue whoever but my experience of a couple of trips to small claimsicon is that it is time consuming, costly and risky.

    So whilst I very much appreciate your concern to reply here, I would prefer to leave your advice aside for now and try to protect myself a little more deeply.

    I am hoping that someone may have experience of contract counterparts, it works for business, I wondered if there was any issue with using counterparts in a deed of trust.


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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    So have you rented to students or multiple tenants before?

    HB


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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    Yup every year since 2001. When this has happened before it normally happens during the academic year so everyone is available to sign a deed of transfer. It has happened before the tenancy commenced a couple of times in the past, but they were all still around in halls, as they sign up during the academic year before, so we did a deed of transfer and it worked great.. This is the first time it has happened before the tenancy, and during hols when they are off travelling.


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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    I meant to ask why you asked?
    FYI I am by no means an expert, I have learnt an awful lot over the years and have a kind of method/process that seems to work. Always looking for new and better ways to continue to make a success of it.


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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    I'm certainly not an expert, I just thought if you'd let to students before you might have a system.

    Or would it be better to let on a yearly basis?

    HB


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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    Or would it be better to let on a yearly basis?
    I don't understand? I do let on a yearly basis - well 11 months, all occupants on joint and several AST.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    The law makes a distinction between ordinary contracts and deeds.

    As you say that this is a "deed of transfer", I assume it needs to be executed as a deed. There are special requirements to execute a deed. In particular, the deed must be 'witnessed' and 'delivered'.

    The document will need a signature block saying something like 'executed as a deed by [NAME]', with another signature block for the witness saying 'witnesses by [NAME]'.

    The formally correct way of handling this is to ask each tenant to print out and physically sign the document. The witness would need to sign as well. The tenant should then return a scanned copy by email, and would confirm in their email that a master copy may be created once all signatures have been obtained. You would insert the date and create a master copy containing all signatures produced once all signatures are received. This is the process which is suggested by Law Society guidance in cases where signatories are not physically present in the same room.

    What would not be valid is someone just responding to the email - they do have to print and sign the document, in order for it to be validly signed as a "deed".

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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    Thank you steampowered for answering my question. I tried to add reputation but apparently I have given you some recently and it would not allow me to do so again.
    I will proceed as you said, that seems like a sensible approach. The deed of assignment does indeed include a line "This document is a DEED and has been executed as a DEED."
    I don't really want to uploadicon the whole thing here as it is copyright of the NLA.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Multiple signatures on tenancy deed of transfer - can they be on different documents and by email?

    No worries. The key thing to remember is that a deed must be witnessed in order to be valid ... so make sure the tenants get someone to witness the signature as well as signing themselves! The witness can be pretty much anybody.

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