go with that useless autodip...on my s-type

After nearly a week of silence I receive an email below from Jaguar.

As can be seen it now feels like initially they were hoping I’d go away but have confirmed its an unsafe car.

Dealership are saying Jaguar beleive a software update is required

if this is the case how many other E-Pace owners are unknowingly driving unsafe cars.

I’ve highlighted this point and also checked with the legal teams and I do have the option to cancel finance and walk away from the deal,

but that then means I’m £8k worse of as I won’t have my discount returned and can only be used once a yea

Jaguar Cars email confirms what the dealership verbally told me ‘ Your car is not safe, we’re not letting you have it back’

In light of the information you have provided I have contacted Jaguar Land Rover Technical Department who looked deeper into the information you provided,

they have advised that there was a fault code for loss engine loss of speed.

This is not linked to the alleged AEB concern however, it does need to be looked at.

I have emailed xxxxx to advise this and asked when your vehicle will be back in the workshop.

I understand that this has not met your expectations at this time.

I can assure you that Jaguar Land Rover would not release a vehicle back to a customer they deemed to be unsafe.

I don't know, as the CRA isn't my area, but I wonder if this vehicle can now be rejected outright, but instead of a refund (as that would mess up your finance) a replacement vehicle could be supplied.

Ultimately, I believe it is down to JLR to put you back in to the position that you would have been in had the problem not arisen. It might be a workable compromise?

Already rejected, current state of play is as follows, Jaguar still refusing to accept there's an issue 'No Fault found',

Jaguar are saying my contract is with the dealership,

dealership need financial assistance from Jaguar to provide replacement which they are not getting due to 'No Fault Found'

Jaguar & dealership blaming each other. Still no explanation as to why the car stopped for 1 minute.

A bit annoyed with it all,

today I have found my trade-in car and it's still in the dealers own network,

I have therefore asked that my trade-in and any monies are returned and the finance cancelled.

" I have therefore asked that my trade-in and any monies are returned and the finance cancelled. "

Its the only way...plenty of other makes available..if not better.

Andy

You need to be clear here, Jaguar don't own the dealership. It seems the dispute is with the dealership, which the contract is with. I'd be interested about the discount though as something makes me think there is something wrong here. Reading all the posts suggests it's not Jaguar whose at fault but the dealership which is where the complaint should lye.

Jaguar seems to be supporting the dealer by saying they've done the right things but have not offered a solution as of yet???

Hi, I'm new to all this so please send me off with a flea in my ear, if I'm talking rubbish.

I agree with Heliosuk

"I'd be interested about the discount though as something makes me think there is something wrong here."

Also with DragonFly1967

"Ultimately, I believe it is down to JLR to put you back in to the position that you would have been in had the problem not arisen.",

but is it JLR or the "trader" who holds the contract?

From my limited understanding the trader is liable for all damages that flow from the breach of contract.

The damages should attempt to put the party in the position they should have been if the contract had been properly fulfilled.

i.e you get your car at the discounted price.

In contract law the trader has to 'put you in that position'.

If the vehicle's condition puts the 'trader' (dealer) in breach of contract and you exercise your statutory rights under CRA, then the damages that flow from that would include your discount. in whatever form it takes.

You may need professional advice, but I would have thought that once a breach of contract is established the recover of the discount should be relatively easy.

Ahh. Whilst I agree that the contract is 'held' with the dealer, ultimately if JLR have supplied the dealer with a vehicle that isn't right (for whatever reason) then it must be up to them (via the dealer) to put it right and put the customer back in the position in which they started.

This is further complicated by the fact that the vehicle is financed through JLR Finance, and a discount was obtained by the use of the JLR privilege scheme.

So somewhere along the lines, even though I agree that the final contract is with the dealer, JLR are going to have to sort it out somehow so that the customer doesn't a) lose any money and b) so that the privilege discount is still available (see a) ). If that makes sense.

Yes. I see. Didn't realise there were so many worms in the can.

Many Corporates have their own in house legals.

Hard to imagine that JLR doesn't.

Might it be worth a letter asking them to 'untangle the worms' so to speak and outline their position regarding where they believe liability lies between the parties

Ultimately, it would appear that the 'group' will take the hit.

Whether, directly or via a B2B event with the dealer.

If you get a reasonable commercial legal, they may advise internally to stop dragging the issue as this will just add to the overall costs.

Simply make sure no payments are made towards the finance...then they will soon unravel it all.

Based on verbal comments from various people at the dealership they are also surprised at the current Jaguar response.

I have found my original Ford Kuga tradein which is in the same dealership chain and they have agreed that I can have it back

Unfortunately things get a little complex, so whats planned is I have to buy my old car back at a slightly higher cost as the dealership has fitted new tyres, MOT’ed the car and are providing a 12 month warranty, I’m happy with the cost as these are items I’d have had to pay for anyway.

The dealership then settles the finance and they resell the car. All good so far. ..

The additional cost does include the £400 good will guesture from Jaguar which I’m guessing will be a voucher tied to the original car not cash, dealer either doesn’t realise this or doesn’t care.

But, as the car was purchased using the Jaguar Privilege scheme the T&C’s state that I have to keep and be the registered owner for 12 months.

Failure to do this may result in my Father (Privilege owner) loosing the benefit and being liable to repay the Privilege amount, £8,000.

This is now the last remaining problem,

the dealership have checked with the Privilege Programme Manager and had confirmation that they will not be liable for the £8000 and the dealership are advising me to get something in writing to confirm I won’t or my father won’t be liable either.

I’m guessing the Programme Manager has only been asked if the dealership will be liable, not the fact that the car will be re registered and I’ll be breaking the T&C’s.

Its another waiting game until Monday, hopefully this won’t be another problem.

If it is I either have to accept the ‘No fault Found’ car back or proceed with legal action.

If I was to win the same re registration of the E-Pace would result. 

"So based on verbal comments....." I know it's nice to have warm cosy chats, but considering the possible route of your dispute, please don't forget to get the important points in writing.

I think your right and sensible to try and disassemble the can of worms and treat it in parts, but again I would urge you wherever possible to get a written statement of the position\agreement.

"If I was to win the same re registration of the E-Pace would result." Sorry, I don't really understand the importance of this comment in the light of what's been said above. If the vehicle is in breach of the requirements of the CRA and you have a case for breach of contract, then subsequent losses e.g. your breach of T&C are a consequence of, (flow) from that and are recoverable as damages are they not?

In preparation for Privilege not supporting me and insisting I'll be in breach of T&C's and liable for £8000 if I return to my original part ex, I have prepared the following letter that I will send to the dealership, hopefully it won't be required. Any comments or suggests welcomed:

Dear Mr. XXXX,

REF: Hill/DEALERSHIPNAME-E-Pace SE

I purchased the E-Pace SE with tow bar from DEALERSHIPNAME. At the point of purchase, I paid £41,000 made up of Trade-in, Jaguar Privilege & Jaguar Finance.

The E-Pace SE is unfit for purpose. On 8th June at 13:34 the car was driving at speed on the A1 dual carriage way, unexpectedly and without any warnings the vehicle applied the brakes. The vehicle came to a stop, gears automatically changed from Drive, to neutral and then to park. Following this incident, it was not possible to restart the vehicle or enable the hazard warning lights for a short period.

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 makes it an implied term of the contract I have with DEALERSHIPNAME that goods be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality.

As you are in breach of contract and I've owned the product for less than 30 days I am within my statutory rights to ask for it to be replaced at no further cost to me. I officially notified DEALERSHIPNAME on the 11th June at 17:35.

There have been ongoing investigations with ‘No fault found’ this does not mean the vehicle is safe or fit for purpose. I have provided evidence taken from the car that confirms that an event did occur as I have detailed. Jaguar Cars also confirmed on the 11th July that there were errors:

“In light of the information you have provided I have contacted Jaguar Land Rover Technical Department who looked deeper into the information you provided, and they have advised that there was a fault code for loss engine loss of speed. This is not linked to the alleged AEB concern however, it does need to be looked at. I have emailed XXXX to advise this and asked when your vehicle will be back in the workshop.

I understand that this has not met your expectations at this time. I can assure you that Jaguar Land Rover would not release a vehicle back to a customer they deemed to be unsafe.”

I await confirmation that you will provide the remedy set out above within 14 days of the date of this letter.

Yours faithfully,

Hi,

I'm not trying to knock you.

You're obviously having a rough time with this, but it's not the best example of a business letter.

Try adopting this sort of structure/format (can be used for almost anything):

Situation - Whatever it is - I bought from you, car (make model) registration index (this is important) forget the minutiae of things like tow bar unless they relate to the problem.

Complication - What happened, what they did etc can't fix it, which makes it of unsatisfactory quality

Action - What you will do (Reject under CRA Short-term Right (if still applicable). What you want them to do, refund/replace, whatever and when you want it (reasonably) done by

Politeness - be nice and ask for them to please respond (in writing - you want things formally recorded) within n days.

If you want a model/template to start with that you can make your own then the Which Consumer people have a draft here: https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letter/letter-rejecting-a-second-hand-car-bought-from-a-dealer

Its for a second hand deal, but you can adapt it (try to keep to the structure above) I'm sure.

Alternatively, given the value of deal, and potentially claim, you may be better off engaging a legal.

I'm sorry, but it's late and I didn't reread everything, but have you spoken with the motor ombudsman?

Is the garage a member?

So a question relating to the Consumer Rights Act, and something that may have caused me an issue. Is it only the owner of the vehicle who can claim a vehicle is not fit for purpose? The reason for asking is that I was going to claim, but I had a conversion with Jaguar Finance (Black Horse) who without any prompting from myself said the they had investigated the case and as no fault had been found would not be making a claim under the Consumer Rights Act, the finance company are the legal owner?

It just feels like all companies involved are linked to the Jaguar Car company, if they deem no fault found the dealership, finance company and Privilege either can’t or do not have to help.

Hopefully by the end of the week I’ll be able to provide a further update on my progress so far.

Under the CRA "goods" mean any tangible moveable items (including water, gas and electricity if and only if they are put up for supply in a limited volume or set quantity). All contracts for the supply of goods by a trader to a consumer are potentially caught by the Act (including sales, hire and hire-purchase contracts)

https://www.blakemorgan.co.uk/news-events/news/consumer-rights-act-2015-change-consumer-contracts/

So its not just me thats had problems with JLR, amusing article and approach taken by another customer:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/53k-range-rover-vogue-left-14923431

It was also a little strange that I went to transfer my belongings from my E-Pace to another car, remember the one that had ‘No fault found’ there was a sign in the front wind ‘Do not drive’ so its a safe car then. And yes I have a photo.