Hello all, I didn`t expect to find myself up the creek again, and like a fool I went to another consumer site for help, basically because I was a tad embarrassed to be here again, so I paid my subscription and got no advice...I understand that there`s probably not a lot of advice left to give because of where I am with Debt Managers.......

This is gonna be a long post, so many thanks in advance for taking the time to read it and give me some feedback XX

Many moons ago when you lovely people helped me before, I had gotten into financial bother, one company was Next, I cca`d them and all they could produce was an unsigned credit agreement, I know that I never signed one, the account was defaulted 21 Dec 2012, in 2016 Next sold the account to Debt managers services ltd, I told them that the account had been in dispute since 2012 because of no executed agreement, I heard nothing from them until I received a letter of claim from Restons solicitors, which was dated 27th April 2018 but I actually received it Friday 4th July 2018, as you know I have 30 days to reply, which I have.

The worst thing for me is, I cannot find my paperwork so I`m running blind, I can feel everyone`e eyes tilting to the skies, trust me I did more than that!!

I think the easiest thing for me to do is to show letters and responses in date order.

27th April 2018:

We are instructed by debt managers services ltd to seek payment from you of the outstanding balance on your above account, being £***.**. No interest or further charges are being applied by the creditor to this account.

 

A copy of a recent statement of account for the debt (which confirms the amount outstanding) is enclosed.

 

This debt relates to the outstanding balance of the amount you borrowed from next directory under a credit facility but have not repaid. The credit facility was granted persuant to a written agreement between you and the original ceditor which was dated on or around Janueary 9 2004. You do have the right to ask us (as solicitors for the creditor) for a copy of the written agreement. PLease refer to paragraph 6 of the enclosed document entitled "Frequently Asked Questions" for more information about what is meant by the agreement and what you can expect to receive.

 

6. Am I entitled now to see a copy of the actual agreement I signed?

No.

The letter of claim explains that your liability is for money outstanding under a credit facility arising from a written agreement you entered into and that a copy of that written agreement can b requested from the creditor.

However you are not now entitled to see a copy of any actual agreement you signed i.e. the agreement with your signature on it. As an example, under legislation, a creditor, when required to provide a copy of an agreement, is entitled to provide a reconstituted copy-in other words a template of the original. So, if you do request a copy of any agreement please do not expect to see a document which contains your signature.

 

The debt under the credit facility exists and remains whether or not you are now provided with a copy of the agreement. We, on behalf of our client, may also advise you a copy of the agreement is not currently available(or any other document referred to in Section 4 of the reply form)

 

Section 4 states that the additional documents or information that you might need could include:

a copy of the written contract for the debt

a full statement of account, including details of all interest and charges included on the outstanding balance of the debt, explaining how they have been calculated, and any payments already made toward the debt

a calculation of interest claimed

the annual or daily rate of interest

a description of the nature and amount of any administrative charges included in the debt

a copy of the notice of assignment of the debt.

This section, section 19, really got me riled,

Section 19: Has the Creditor previously told me what this Claim is about?

Before selling the debt your original creditor will have served statutory notices and sent you letters to remind you what type of credit facility you entered into (e.g a loan or credit card), the account number and how much was owed under the credit facility. This information, which is usually held by the original creditor on ots computer systems is then passed to any debt purchaser (including our client) when it sells your account.

The same information is then usually repeated in correspondence which a debt purchaser sends you as soon as it has acquired the account including how much you owe.

 

in view of the amount of information you have already received (from the original creditor and our client and anyone who acyed for either of them) we think it is reasonable to assume that you are aware of your liability and do not dispute it.

 

This debt was assigned to debt managers services ltd on or about July 8th 2016. Around that time you were sent written notification that debt managers services ltd now owns the debt as it is the creditor under the credit facility and so it is entitled to receive payment of the balance under that facility.

 

We ask you to pay the sum of £***.** direct to this office by Tuesday May 29, 2018 failing which we have instructions to issue a Claim against you in County Court for the full balance due plus any fees and costs that the Court may award our Client.

 

Once issued, should you fail to reply to the Claim, we are instructed to request the Court grants a Judgement. If a Judgement is granted this will be registered by the Court and may affect your ability to obtain credit in the future.

 

Our Client may be prepared to accept payments by instalments. If you wish to consider this options please complete the enclosed financial statement and return it to this office by Tuesday, May 29th 2018 or visit our website.

 

As required under the protocol, enclosed with this letter is a copy of the Information sheet and the reply form.

 

All future correspondence and payments should be sent to this office.

 

Finally, if you are not already doing so, we recommend that you seek your own independent advice.

 

lots of love restons xx

So, after chatting with debtline, I was informed that regardless of the letter of claim that I can still SAR both companies to see what information they are holding on myself, so I did.....I sent both next day recorded delivery, and were signed for the 11th May 2018. I rummaged through old paperwork, not blooming Next, still haven`t found it, and found an old SAR, thank you PERSEUS :0)

to debt managers i wrote:

I am receiving advise from the National Debtline

 

As you have purchased this account, you are now the Data Controller.

 

As per the section & of the Data Protection Act 1998, "Subject Access Request", I hereby request that you supply to me with any and all historical data in your possession which in any way appertains to me, including (but not exhaustively) a true copy of the original signed executed agreement;copies of all letters between myself and Next and copies of letters between myself and you (debt managers services)ltd, copies of statements of account for the lifetime of the account from inception to today;a copy of the default notice, a copy of the notice of assignment, all internal and eternal correspondence sent or received by you including memo`s logs, notes, screen prints and transcripts;internal and external emails;and any other information. I should receive your full compliance within a maximum of 40 days of this letter being recorded as delivered by Royal Mail, the 40 days will start the day after you receive the letter.

 

If you have disclosed any information to a third party, will you please include details of this in your reply, including the information you shared with the third party.

 

I enclose the statutory fee of £10.00, by way of cheque and remind you that you have 40 days in which to comply. May I confirm, as the ICO has already that the 40-day time limit is not to be used as a guide for responding to the request, but it is the maximum period allowed in law and that whenever possible a data controller should proceed with all possible expediency in fulfilling a Subject Access Request.

 

I await your timely response

 

loads of love Troj x

To Restons...

I am getting advise from the National Debtline.

 

For clarity, this is not my response to the "letter of claim", it is a request to get copies of all the data which you hold on me.

 

As per the section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 "Subject Access Request", I hereby request that you supply to me a copy of all the data you possess in which any way pertains to me.

 

As you are aware I should receive your full complaince within a maximum of 40 days of this letter being recorded as delivered by Royal Mail.

 

I enclose the statutory fee by way of a cheque.

 

Love from Troj xx

As I said both were signed for 11th May 2018.

The response I got was:

Monday 21st May 2018

RE:Debt Managers(Services)Ltd v Yourself

 

We acknowledge receipt of your Subject Access Request.

 

Yours Faithfully

Mr A Matthews

Compliance Officer

I sent a CCA request to debt managers (services)ltd, which was sent next day delivery, so it was signed for 16th May2018.

I wrote:

Please send me a copy of the above credit agreement and a full breakdown of the account including any interest of charges added.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (sections 77-79), I am entitled to receive a copy of any credit agreement and a statement of account when I request it. I enclose a payment of £1 which is the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

I understand a copy of any agreement along with a statement of account should be supplied within 12 working days.

 

I understand that, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with the request for a copy of the agreement and statement of account.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

love Trojxx

Dated 17th May 2018, i Received this from debt managers:

Thank you for your recent letter regarding the above account. I can confirm that we have referred the matter to Next in order to obtain a copy of the original credit agreement for the account.

 

Please find enclosed the £1.00 cheque as this in not necessary.

 

Please be aware that the account is now being dealt with by restons solicitors. Any further queries should be made to them.

 

Yours Sincerely

Ian Horsfield

Correspondence Support Team.

A few days passed and I phoned the FOS, they advised me to place an official complaint to debt managers (services)ltd and await their final response.....

letter to debt managers (services)ltd dated 18th may 2018, signed for 21st may 2018, sent next day delivery but was posted on a friday.

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE SINCE 2012

 

OFFICIAL LETTER OF COMPLAINT

 

I am getting help from the National Debtline and the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

I am writing to ask you to delay any action which you may be intending to take.

 

Having taken advice from an investigator at the Financial Ombudsman Service this morning, they have advised me to contact you to make a c complaint, and that you are to give me your "final response" within eight weeks. Then from there they can decide whether to investigate your actions and determine an outcome.

 

I have requested information from you under the Data Protection Act 1998 and the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and await for you to fully respond with those requests as well.

 

i am unhappy that you are now trying to enforce collection of the alleged debt, when I have made you aware that the alleged account has been "in dispute" since 2012, and that no signed credit agreement made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 ever existed. I also never acknowledged any debt with your company Debt Managers (services) ltd. I made all of this very clear to you. I assume that you have not passed this information on to your solicitors because they assume that I did sign one in their "letter of claim".

 

I will see what information you gave to your solicitors when you reply to my SAR as I specifically asked to see what information you have shared with third parties.

 

You state that you are authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority for accounts formed under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. With respect I have enclosed a copy of the Consumer Credit Sourcebook, Chapter 13, Guidance on the duty to give information under sections 77,78 and 79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 from the FCA Handbook.

 

I await your "final response" and your replies to both my SAR and request for information under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

I will be sending copies of my requests for information and this Letter of Complaint to your solicitors.

 

love Troj

letter to restons solicitors, signed for 21st may 2018.

I am taking advice from the National debtline and the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

After having spoken with an investigator at the Financial Ombudsman Service yesterday, they have advised me to write and ask you to delay any action you may be intending, and that I send a letter of complaint to your client debt managers (services) ltd asking them for a "final response" within eight weeks, then from there the Financial Ombudsman Service can decide whether to investigate debt managers(services) ltd actions and determine an outcome.

 

So, I am respectfully asking you to delay any action which you may be intending to take, while I wait for debt managers (services) to give me their "final response" to my complaint, and to reply to my request for information under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Data Protection Act 1998. For your ease and out of courtesy I have enclosed copies of all information that I have sent to debt managers (services) ltd.

 

After speaking with the Finanacial Ombudsman Service, they made me aware taht because you are acting on behalf of your client, that you work on the information that your client shares with you. Taking into consideration, as I have written in my letter of complaint to debt managers(services)ltd, I made them aware that the alleged account has been "in dispute" with next directory since 2012 when the default was issued, and that no signed credit agreement made under the CCA 1974 ever existed. I have never acknowledged any debt with debt managers(services) ltd. In your letter to myself, you made assumptions that I am respectfully telling you are incorrect.

 

So there is no confusion, I will return my reply to your letter of claim within the 30 days.

 

love troj x

this is the last letter I promise, to those of you who have made it this far, I thank you for your patience xx

this letter to restons was signed for 23 may 2018.

I am getting advice from the National Debtline and the FOS.

 

For clarity the request for information which I sent to your client was NOT a request for information under pre-action protocol, it was clearly marked in bold type CCA 1974.

 

Having received a reply to my request for information under the CCA74 from your client debt managers (services) ltd, I acknowledge that Mr Ian Horsfield has referred the matter to Next in order to obtain a copy of the original credit agreement for the account.

 

Under the CCA74, there is a fee of £1.00 to be paid for the information requested under the CCA 74, which I sent but Mr Horsfield returned as he said it was not necessary.

 

In regard to the content of the Consumer Credit Sourcebook of the FCA, it states the following rules:

7.14.1(1) A firm must suspend any steps it takes or its agent takes in the recovery of a debt from a customer where the customer disputes the debt on valid grounds or what may be valid grounds.

7.14.3 Where a customer disputes a debt on valid grounds or what may be valid gounds, the firm must investigate the dispute and provide details of the debt to the customer in a timely manner.

7.14.5 A firm must provide a customer with information on the outcome of its investigation into a debt where the customer disputed it on valid grounds.

7.14.6 Where a customer disputes a debt and the firm seeking to recover the debt is not the lender or the owner, the firm must:

(1) pass the information provided by the customer to the lender or the owner, or

(2) if the firm has authority from the lender or owner to investigate a dispute, it must notify the lender or owner of the outcome of the investigation.

 

I understand that a copy of any agreement, including terms and conditions should be those that were applicable at the time the alleged agreement was executed(13.1.4. FCA Sourcebook), if the agreement has been varied, the duty is to provide not only a copy of the alleged agreement as originally executed but also either:

(a) a copy of the latest variation given in accordance with section 82(1) of the CCA relating to each discrete term of the agreement which ahs been varied;or

(b) a clear statement of the terms of the alleged agreement as varied.

 

The FCA`s Consumer Credit Sourcebook also contains information in a chapter titled Failure to Comply, that being:

 

13.1.6:

(1)Failure to comply with the provisions means that the agreement becomes unenforceable while the failure to comply persists, and the courts have no discretion to allow enforcement.

(2)In such cases, a firm should in no way, either by act or omission, lislead a customer as to the enforceability of the agreement.

(3)In particular, a firm should not in such cases either threaten court action or other enforcement of the debt or imply that the debt is enforceable when it is not.

(7)This guidance deals only with the question of whether an agreement is unenforceable in relation to sections 77,78 and 79 of the CCA 1974. A lender`s rights to enforce an agreement may be restricted for a variety of reasons, by the Act, by or under the CCA and by virtue of general law.

(8)However, where a firm is aware that an agreement is unenforceable because of non-compliance with an information request under sections 77,77 or 79 of the CCA, a firm should make it clear when communicating to a customer about a debt that the debt is in fact unenforceable. Failure to do so, in that case, would be in the FCA`s view, unfairly mislead the customer by omission. Any communication that implies expressively or otherwise that a debt is enforceable when it is known that it is not, would be misleading. One way to avoid this would be for the firm to explain to the customer the full meaning of "unenforceable".

 

I understand that your client has 12 working days to supply me with all the information that I can expect to receive. I also understand that, under the CCA 74, creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with the request.

 

I await for my fully compliant reply from your client debt managers (services) ltd, and expect all action to be put on hold until the time that they have fully complied in accordance to the rule and regulations as set out by both the CCA 74 and the FCA.

 

love troj x

thank you once again, any ideas on what else i can do, or maybe that what i have done is ok would be fantastic, take care, love form Troj xx

God what war and peace

And 90% a total waste of time letter tennis

Until/unless they comply with your CCA you ignore them totally

You dont sar a dca or their powerless dog

They are not bailiffs

And have zero legals powers

You need to reply to the PAP letter of claim

Use post 6 here

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?481827-The-Pre-Action-Protocol-for-Debt-Claims-is-made-by-the-Master-of-the-Rolls-as-Head-of-Civil-Justice.-1st-Oct-2017

Retitled and moved to mail order forum

Additionally, please will you use the quotes function when you tell us the contents of letters. I tidied this one up to you but you can see how much more legible it is when it is organised in this way.

We don't charge you a subscription – we do it for free and I think it's only fair if you try to make it easy for us.

By the way, which was this subscription website?

Oh and your debt is statute barred

Youve not paid nowt in 6 yrs........????

A huge thank you for taking the time to read through, thanks for sorting out my post Bankfodder, I put July the 5th instead of May 5th for the actual day I received it, but I know that folk aren`t daft and can see what the date was by my other letter dates.

dx100uk, thank you for replying, I have replied to the letter of claim, it had to be returned by 27th May. I thought that if I sar`d Debt Managers(Services)Ltd that they would send me copies of all the paperwork that I couldn`t find.

The debt was assigned to debt management(services)ltd in 2016, restons said that debt managers now owned the debt, that was another reason I sar`d them.

I have not paid anything since before the default 21 dec 2012.

In a nutshell I panicked. I thought I was going to court.

I will pm you which site I went on.

Thanks again X

so not SB'd then …..

you need to follow the end bit of post 2 and reply to the PAP letter properly!!

Hi dx100uk

Nope it`s not statute barred.

I have replied to the letter of claim, it was received the 24th may 2018.

Hind sight is a marvellous thing,

Taking that into consideration,

I replied with only the help from the National Debtline,

I did not tick box D as I did not have any supporting documents which they were asking for.

I ticked box C, I don`t know whether I owe the debt.

I ticked Box I , the documents I requested were:

A true copy of the original signed executed agreement.

Copies of statements of account for the lifetime of the account to ensure the amount in question is correct and does not include any wrongfully added fees or interest, I cannot ensure the amount is correct without all of these.

A copy of the default notice.

A copy of the notice of assignment

A copy of all letters between myself and Next and copies of all letters between myself and Debt managers (services)ltd

I requested the letters to prove to the courts that i did enter into dialogue with both companies.

Thanks so much for your help today.

Good