Many thanks, dx

" Do I need to title it ‘skeleton defence’ "

 

Again ...no such thing exists.

Ha! Deja vue!

Thanks Andy

Hi Guys,

It's been a while. I'll give you a quick update.

I defended the claim in the County Court Business Centre.

Proceedings got transferred to my local court, which is Wrexham, in Wales, and things went quiet for a while.

I then received a hearing date of 12 October.

Witness statements have to be in by 10 September and mine is ready to go.

However,

I came home from work tonight at 10.30pm to discover that the Claimant, VCS, has sent me a 48 page evidence pack.

I'm on a 16 hour shift tomorrow and the next day is the submission date.

There isn't enough time for me to re-write my defence to contest each of their points.

There isn't even enough time for me to scan it and post it in this thread.

So that seems like a dirty trick.

If I submit my defence in the form of a witness statement,

do I get only one chance to do so?

Can I state that my defence is generalised and written without being able to fully consider their evidence and then come back with a second, more specific statement? Can I ask for an extension to give me time to consider late evidence?

Their pack consists of a copy of the original claim,

a 10 page Witness Statement,

a Contract of Authority (which seems to be a statement from the land owner, confirming that VCS have their authority to issue and pursue PCNs - and is dated 5 months after the alleged breach of contract),

photos of the site and signage,

copies of the original missing PCN and Final Reminder,

and two complete Appeal decisions.

The 1st Appeal is Vine v Waltham Forest B.C.

which seems to be saying that the signage needs to be visible,

and the 2nd one is Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking which seems to be considering whether conditions can be imposed in a contact when a ticket is issued automatically and without giving the driver the opportunity to negotiate.

Their Witness statement describes in detail the circumstances around the alleged breach,

who they are and their interest,

the signage and the terms they communicate,

and the fact that I have disregarded their correspondence and procedures.

It references Thornton v Shoe Lane, Vine v Waltham Forest B.C.,

and Parking Eye v Beavis and

states how they have authority under the POFA Act to pursue me as the R.K.

It says they have the authority of the landowner and that their signs do not need planning consent because they fall into Schedules 1 & 3 of the Town & Country Planning Regs 2007.

It finishes by referencing Chaplair Ltd v Kumari (2015) EWCA 798, which seems to be something about justifying the increase in charge if it isn't paid quickly by calling it a valid dept recovery charge.

That's it.

48 pages condensed down to a few sentences!

How can I address these points when they've submitted them at the last moment.

My Witness Statement currently is similar to that in post #48 of this thread.

Thanks Guys.

so you had an n180

you said no mediation

you need to scan up their ws to ONE multipage PDF

follow upload

not fair on cag to leave things 3mts before you come back...

so you had an n180

you said no mEDIATION

 

not fair on cag to leave things 3mts before you come back...

Yes, sorry about leaving it so long. I understand why you say that, although nothing has happened since I previously posted except the track allocation and hearing date. But I realise that if I had posted earlier, you might have anticipated they would do this and I could have been better prepared.

I Don't know what an N180 is, but I did say no to mediation and the case has been allocated to a court near me. I'm at work at the moment and have limited access to my paperwork. However, I am about to upload the Claimant's Witness Statement.

Here is VCS's Witness Statement:

VCS Witness Statement.pdf

we need the exhibits too please

so they say they have a contract but wont show it to you. I have a bag of gold I am willing to sell you but you cant look inside the bag until you have paid for it.

They are also picking out one paragrpah of the advertising display regs and deciding that it doesnt apply. You need to use the WHOLE Act to show which bit does apply, see the parking pranksters blog of dec 16th 2017 for a link to a well studied article on this. Use it.

As they are relying on a keeper liability then how come they have added a mystery £60 unicorn food tax to the bill when the POFA expressly forbiids them claiming any more than the charge exprseed as the debt on the NTK. If they had a proper contract with the driver then that MAY be allowable but they cont force an unfair or hidden condition on the keeper where there is such liability so even if they are right about the parking bill they should be challenged on this anyway

in para 10 they refer to their job as mrely to enforce conditions. This means they are acting as agents to the landowner and gives them no rights to make claims in their own name as a third party and thus have no locus standi. If their statement is true then the landowner is the person who should be issuing and prosecuting a claim, not them. you need to pull them apart on that.

So where is their JB1? We need to see it

Thanks dx and ericsbrother

Here is more or less everything referred to in VCS's Statement:

The Appeal Decisions are poor quality and appear to be photocopies of copies of copies.

There are sections that have been highlighted before being photocopied (in black & white) and so are unreadable.

Presumably these are the most significant parts or they wouldn't have been highlighted in the first place.

I also noticed the site photos were taken three years ago.

Witness Statements were submitted to the court two days ago.

I would have liked the opportunity to submit evidence and observations addressing VCS's Witness Statement but it arrived too late. Presumably I now have to wait for my day in court.

JB1 - Site Information.compressed.pdf

JB2 - PCN and Final Reminder.compressed.pdf

Appeal - Vine v Waltham Forest.compressed.pdf

Appeal - Thorntom v Shoe Ln.compressed.pdf

It is possible to rebut their evidence but you can also do this on the day so nothing lost, take whatever you need along with you to do this. Have 3 copies (1 for court, 1 for them and 1 for yourself).

Now the cases they quote are just saying that a contract can exist even if you say you havent seen it if they have advertised it well enough.

That isnt wht you are claiming and many a parking co has lost a claim due to INADEQUATE signage so what is adequate is very much a variable according to conditions at the place and time.

Obvious ones being signs behind wheelie bins or overgrown by trees making them impossible to see so evidence of their presence immaterial to how prominent they are.

They highlight this point but it may well be their undoing if the signs arent prominent enough as said.

Also, having a sign doesnt automatically make it a legal contract, we already have the 2007 planning act to adhere to or they are breaking the law and you cant enter into a criminal compact and also there is the unfair trading terms regs so the sign must show exactly what is being offered and all relevant bits must be of equal prominence

so if signage varies with wording on parking ticket machine then the signs arent a contract, the machine blurb is and often that says nowt about anything of importance.

Look up INVITATION TO TREAT and then search the Parking pranksters blog for reports where that has been used to beat the parking co, there is at least one court report from about 3 years ago to use, copy it and take it with you if you havent already got it.

If the signage is different now then you can beat them with this stick as well.

The main point of this argument is not to question the signs themselves but to how that their entire WS is a false representation of the facts and they have signed it off as being a true statement

. That will do for them, especially as the person signing it wont be there and you can make hay from this as well by saying that you want to cross examine this statement as it is clearly not true but cant so request that it is either dismissed from their evidence or an adjournment is made so you can be given the opportunity to cross examine the witness.

that usually results in the judge not allowing either but deciding that they prefer your evidence and performance on the day.

Saves them making statements about VCS being liars because it might be a genuine error they have made for the 39th time that month

Thanks ericsbrother

Is it possible for you to direct message me with your contact details? I want to tell you something about my circumstances that I don't want to put on a public forum and ask for your opinion as to it's relevance. I have tried quite hard to contact you since your post above, including a couple of messages to the administrators. But my 26 posts to date won't allow me to send PMs. Thanks in advance.

No its against site rules

you can PM any siteteam member and we can pass it on.

If you want to tell me about your circumstances that often means you want to mitigate something by explaining that your granny was ill and your dog died or whatever. It doesnt change a unilateral contract unless the driver was blind or mentally incompetent to be allowed to make decisions for themselves and that then raises some rather important issues not related to this case.

If you want to offer up a disability as a reason for an action then you would have had to have notified the parking co of this before you parked. They would otherwise claim their 10 minute grace period is enough for you to make the necessary steps to avoid getting robbed by them. The exception being arguments over disabled spaces and signage attached to them

We need to stick to the facts of the matter, so their paperwork, their signage, proof of contract (theirs with LL, theirs with you) and so forth.

So, tell us what else you intend to take with you as evidence- previous persuasive cases for example. Pictures, esp of the entrance to the car park as often the signage cant be seen from the drivers seat or is different to the wording on the signs inside the car aprk or on the payment meter. This amkes the main sign an "invitation to treat" and not binding and thsu the smaller signs can be ignored or rejected as contracts until you actually agree to them by feeding the meter

I'm really grateful to you guys for your help so far.

I'm afraid I won't be defending this claim any further.

I feel like I'm letting all future drivers down because there is an important principal to defend here and, to some extent, every win these private parking companies have helps create a precedent in their favour.

Ericsbrother, unfortunately I am not allowed to communicate with you privately to tell you my reasons or to discuss the best way to retreat with the least damage.

I have two accounts on here and have between them more than enough posts to enable me to send you a private message and I have twice asked the administrators whether I can merge the two accounts or at least combine the number of posts - but no-one has responded.

I have now almost run out of time and will contact the court to throw in the towel.

It's a shame, because I am pretty confident about winning the case.

Hey ho, life sometimes gets in the way.

as you have already been told

PM a member of the site team you dont need 30 posts to do that.

rather than emailing an address that is not necessarily monitored or we even know you have got correct

which email did you use please

we are trying to help you but cant if we don't know things..

and no don't give in..

rather than emailing an address that is not necessarily monitored or we even know you have got correct

which email did you use please

Thanks for your reply dx

I contacted the administators through the 'contact us' button on the bottom of each page. Have they not received my messages?

well pm me

hit the button below

or click my username

Thanks dx. Done.

we really need pictures of the site, so a shot from the pubic highway of the entrance and then pictures of the signage in the car park and an idea of where they are relative to where your car was parked.

This is common on every thread and has been asked for before. VCS normally drop their claim at the court door but you will need to give them a reason to do so. We already ahve several but they are often not enough on their own even though the law is explicit, judges often dont appreciate having to look up such things so you willneed to force feed them with it.

Thanks ericsbrother

I have a whole load of photos, notes and a plan of the car park showing positions of signs and street lamps. I have a rare weekend at home this weekend and will get everything uploaded in the morning. Thank you.

Some photos and notes. I have other photos, but I'm guessing that once you've seen one parking space you've seen them all!

Edit:

Just spotted a typo. The notes on the first diagram says there were no signs along the left hand boundary, where the car was parked. Should read 'right hand boundary'. Sorry.

My Plan.pdf

OK, one thing we havent seen is the original NTk, do you have that?

So to pick holes in their signage and thus claim.

1.The claimant hasnt shown a cause for action against the defendnat as they havent stated in what capacity the defendant is being sued, if it is as the driver at the time the defendant puts this to STRICT PROOF as to the identity as they deny being the driver at the time. If they are claiming against the keeper then any liability ios denied as VCS have failed to follow the protocols of the POFA to create a keeper liability.

If the claimant has determined they are suing the keeper then the amount claimed is in breach of para 4(5) by claming more than the specified sum on the Notice to Keeper. This section of the POFA does not permit the addition of any of the so called recovery or admin charges totalling £60 in this claim and so, even if the rest of the claim is allowed it shoudl only be for the stated sum on the NTK

2. The sign to the right states that th erland is managed by Lambert Smith Hampton so presumably they are the people who have contracted VCS as their agents. VCS have not shown a chain of authority from the Landowner that gives them the right to enter into contracts and to make civil claims in thier own name. Due to the fact they are contracted by a third party the defendant does not belives they ahve Locus Standi in this matter.

3. The sign at the entrance is not an offer of a contract but an invitation to treat. This means that the driver may enter the land and is not obliged to consider and accept the contract offered by the additional signs and has not done so. Matters of trespass are solely for the landowner should the invitation to enter be revoked.

4. The signage that forms the contract states that CCTV enforcemetn will be doen by Ecel Parking Services ltd. The KADOE contract with the DVLA and the DPA as was do not allow for one company to act on behalf of another in this way so the keeper data is being obtained unlawfuly. By making it a contractual condition that the driver accept VCS's unlawful behaviour they are attempting to create a criminal compact and no contract can thus exist that relies upon this condition.

5. The claimant has failed to show evidence of having planning permission for their signage under the 2007 Town and Country Planning Act. It is an offence not to comply with this so there cannot be a lawful contract formed by way of the signage as the driver cannot enter into a criminal compact.

use this to hang all your detail that you put as your draft WS on.

Take copies of the cases you wish to rely on and add those to your bundle.

Dont forget, VCS usually dotn turn up and at best send along a paralegal from a local firm. Use the rights of audienec legislation to prevent them from speaking. Tkae a copy of that with you in case the judge isnt certain of who cna and cant speak.

Hello ericsbrother

I don't have the original NTK, but VCS have kindly included a copy in their witness statement, which I assume is true to the original. It can be seen in post 59, in the 2nd doc labelled JB2.

We are in court on the 12th.

1.The claimant hasnt shown a cause for action against the defendant as they havent stated in what capacity the defendant is being sued, if it is as the driver at the time the defendant puts this to STRICT PROOF as to the identity as they deny being the driver at the time.

Won't the judge simply ask me who was driving, and I'll be obliged to answer under oath?

4. The signage that forms the contract states that CCTV enforcement will be done by Excel Parking Services ltd. The KADOE contract with the DVLA and the DPA as was do not allow for one company to act on behalf of another in this way so the keeper data is being obtained unlawfully.

That was well spotted! I can tell you've done this before!

VCS usually dont turn up and at best send along a paralegal from a local firm. Use the rights of audience legislation to prevent them from speaking. Take a copy of that with you in case the judge isnt certain of who can and cant speak.

What the rights of audience legislation? Why would legislation exist that stops one party's legal representative from speaking on their behalf in court?