Just the basics if anyone has any experience here please:

I work for a private sub-contractor providing transport logistics, servicing the NHS.

I come into no contact with patients or healthcare professionals, but do have to move equipment that has been in hospitals.

I don't want to have a HepB injection.

I was told by my line manager that as a 'duty of care' issue they can 'force' me to have the injection.

I refused. My objectionable manager took great delight in telling me this will be gross misconduct.

Despite the confrontational language used, I imagine the end-story of this stand off will be my manager telling me if I don't have it I will be sacked, rather than him holding me down and forceably stabbing me with a needle?

I've worked for the company for three years. I refuse to have the injection. It is not work critical. I've offered to sign a waiver.

Can he sack me? There's nothing in my employment contract originally signed in 2015 about my continued employed being dependent upon being stabbed with unproven viruses, etc.

Any advice. I'm tempted to go in all guns blazing, but..

I assume he meant can require you to have the injection if you want to stay working for them. I doubt it's gross misconduct but they could probably make it a condition of employment. Presumably not just you but all employees doing the same job as you? Is it a requirement of the NHS for employees of their logistics contractors to have the vaccination?

Is the hepatitis B vaccine unproven, as you claim? I don't think that's the view of the NHS or most medical professionals.

The Hepatitis B vaccine is not an "unproven virus".

The employer is entitled to require vaccination where they, or a client, believe that there is a risk of infection, either to you or to other people. Hep B is commonly vaccinated against in many employments, including the NHS, and social care. If this is your employers policy, then unless you can provide a very good reason for refusing to comply, then yes, they can dismiss you - and they may do so even if you have a very good reason. Having a good reason to refuse isn't a guaranteed escape route as it depends why they are asking for it.

My point is there's nothing in my original employment contract about having vaccinations. He's now saying it's a condition of employment after the event.

I point blank refuse to have this injection.

When he tells me in anger "You're fired" and I take it to ET, who's going to win? (And as much as I appreciate your opinion on it I can get opinions down the pub, do you please have any legislation to ease my concern) Thanks

There is a safe an effective vaccination against Hepatitis B. However, forcing an employee to have an injection against their will is assault. Making it a condition of employment is debatable especially if they are not in a high risk group (i.e. medical professionals, prison officers, or the police).

More information can be found here: http://www.hse.gov.uk/biosafety/blood-borne-viruses/immunisation.htm

Thanks Mr P for some helpful and non-judgmental advice - eminds me why CAG used to be alright.

Joking aside, it can't be right that after 3 years work I can be forced to have something stuck into my body that goes against my protected religious characteristics or lose my job, when it's not in my original contract? What next in years to come? Maybe drivers will need enforced GPS embedded in their necks to track their movements, and if we disagree - sacked? Thin end of the wedge.

Firstly, I think you are bonkers refusing the vaccination.

a) it is a sub-unit vaccine : not a live virus vaccine, so can’t give you HepB.

b) Hep B is highly infectious and very hardy. It can survive outside the body for substantial periods.

If their concern is that you may come into occupational contact with something contaminated with HepB, they are doing the right thing offering you vaccine pre-exposure. Have you a good reason for not wanting it? (See below).

That said, not everyone responds to the vaccine, and if you want to play with him a little, say “OK then, what are you going to do if I am a vaccine non-responder? Sack me for something I have no control over?”

(Some people will never respond to the vaccine, no matter how many doses they have of it. Some will respond but will need multiple extra doses.

If someone hasn’t responded at all to the initial course of 3 doses, they’ll also check if the reason is that they have been previously infected .... which they might not know!. If previous infection is detected they won’t give them any more doses of vaccine as there is no point!)

The employer is entitled to require vaccination where they, or a client, believe that there is a risk of infection, either to you or to other people. Hep B is commonly vaccinated against in many employments, including the NHS, and social care. If this is your employers policy, then unless you can provide a very good reason for refusing to comply, then yes, they can dismiss you - and they may do so even if you have a very good reason. Having a good reason to refuse isn't a guaranteed escape route as it depends why they are asking for it.

It is wise to take note of Sangie's comments. If the employer has done a risk assessment and/or it is a requirement of the client, then they may well have the upper hand should you ever take it to ET.

Thanks MrP, I've read around this forum and it seems 100% Sangie posts seem to take a strange pleasure in saying "Employers always great ; Employees **** cannon fodder, and I'll belittle you if you disagree" Ha! Imagine he was probably 'let go' for being over-zealous and miserable by some double-glazing HR department, and now spends his days online, curtains drawn in his mum's basement acting the big 'I am' lol!

 

Thanks Mr P for some helpful and non-judgmental advice - reminds me why CAG used to be alright.

Actually, Sangie is:

1) a “she”, not he

2) A senior union official, and really wants to help workers.

Yet, that doesn’t mean “tell them what they want to hear”.

You’ll get an unvarnished opinion, and if that is “yes, the employer can do that” : it is likely that it isn’t because Sangie is on the employer’s side, but because (even if it is morally wrong) that is what the employer can get away with, so that is what you need to be told can happen.

It is wise to take note of Sangie's comments. If the employer has done a risk assessment and/or it is a requirement of the client, then they may well have the upper hand should you ever take it to ET.

+1.

Up to you if you want to Ignore Sangie’s advice, and, TBH accusing them of being in the employer’s pockets is a pretty good way of ensuring people will think “no point answering, they’ll ignore anything they don’t want to hear”.

Joking aside, it can't be right that after 3 years work I can be forced to have something stuck into my body that goes against my protected religious characteristics

Hep B vaccine isn’t a blood product. What religion doesn’t allow Hep B vaccination?

If someone is exposed to Hep B and had previously not had (or had refused), or not responded to vaccination, one of the options is Hep B immunoglobulin (in effect “borrowing other prople’s immunity”). Now, that is a blood product, and contrary to some religious beliefs.

Sangie is a 'she'?

To everyone else, thank you for your replies. I still don't think it's right that I can be forced to have something injected into my body against my will just to keep a minimum wage job, but you all seem to have no problem with it, so I guess I must be in the wrong. I'll keep looking online....

Sangie is a 'she'?

Well, I was trying to highlight it could be perceived as sexist to assume someone is male without good reason to do so.

However, all you’ve done now is add further reason for me to perceive the comment, and you, as sexist.

Well, I was trying to highlight it could be perceived as sexist to assume someone is male without good reason to do so.

However, all you’ve done now is add further reason for me to perceive the comment, and you, as sexist.

I'm going to assume that this is a troll and is intentionally abusive and offensive. Not the first one. Won't be the last. Isn't it funny how someone who is a new poster, never posted before, suddenly knows that CAG "used to be good" and now isn't because I post here? Or knows my posting history within minutes of arriving?

I've removed some offensive remarks from the thread.

To the OP - please keep this thread to dealing with your work problems. I think it would be helpful if you told us a bit more about your protected religion and the problem with vaccination, as Bazza mentioned.

HB

I'm going to assume that this is a troll and is intentionally abusive and offensive. Not the first one. Won't be the last. Isn't it funny how someone who is a new poster, never posted before, suddenly knows that CAG "used to be good" and now isn't because I post here? Or knows my posting history within minutes of arriving?

Yes, I thought the same.

My instincts with this is, that if the employers believe that having the injection is a necessary health and safety measure, provided they can offer up evidence of why the injection is needed, that the employer would be justified.

However, before they dismissed someone for not having the injection, I would think it would be reasonable to conduct an assessment. Can measures be implemented, where any issues caused by not having the injection are reduced/removed.

Firstly I think your bonkers for not having the hep b.

No religion says you cant have it unless you've made up your own religion.

Secondly it doesn't have to be in your contract. Its a health and safety matter, and that is an ever evolving beast.

The employer is trying to protect its employees.

Thirdly if it was the other way round and you vo tracted hepatitis b and the employer didn't insist on vaccination,you would be here saying can I sue my employer.

Lastly, dont go off on Sangie, you need no nonsense truthful advice, not someone who pats you on the head and gives you the answer you want.

The employer can insist on vaccination. It wont be a case of assault as the employer wont actually give it, it will be a medical professional and if you dont have it they cannot expose you to a tangible risk.

In conclusion

Go for it all guns a blazing... They will dismiss you and unfortunately you would lose at an ET on health and safety grounds.

yawn. Too many armchair egos here. Thanks Mr P for replying actual legislation.

Moderators, please feel free to delete this thread. It's just another in a long list where the usual CAG egos offer opinions with precious little actual factual legislation.

Your wish is my command, Mr Crunch. I hope you manage to find a forum where people will give you the answers you want.

Thread closed.

HB