Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

£6.99



Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #1
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    Default Employer Messing Me About - Thoughts?

    Hello, looking for some advice please. I'll try and keep this as short and to the point as I can given the complex circumstances!

    I started a new job last month & my contract (that was advertised in the job description is 35hrs per week Monday to Friday.)

    But my line manager (not my 'overall' manager), who interviewed me for the job said at the time that occasionally there will be weekend work i.e. if there are small events on and I said to him verbally, that's fine.

    However, since I started just over one month and a half ago, I've currently worked three weekends (Saturdays - not consecutively) without kicking up a fuss and I've just been informed by my 'overall' manager, that I'll be working the next three weekends in a row (meaning 6 days a week!)
    She seems to just automatically put me and others on without even asking us or conversing, which I find annoying and out or order.

    To further add insult to injury, I've not been asked, but been told that I've to work an extra one hour next week (on top of next Saturday's 8hr shift) which means that will be 13hrs overtime in one week!

    I actually have things planned for the next three weekends she's asking me to work coincidentally.

    Important to note:

    I have not been given a copy of my contract despite asking when I first started for a copy, to which my immediate manager said "what do you want a copy of your contract for?" and I replied so that I know my legals rights etc. I'm sure this would possibly mention the overtime coverage (if any) but the only thing I have to go by is a copy of a staff handbook that mentions overtime but says 'refer to your contract of employment'.

    So, my question to everyone is, do you think I am within my rights to say no to all this overtime at weekends especially when I don't get any advanced notice of a weekend shift coming up?

    Sorry for the long message.
    Thanks


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Employer Messing Me About - Thoughts?

    In short yes.
    Re ask for your contract.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Employer Messing Me About - Thoughts?

    Thanks for answering.

    Yes, the deadline will be the second week in June for the 2 month anniversary since I started so I hope to have my copy of the contract my then.

    I was slightly worried that I would be fired if I refuse to do overtime (even though I have showed willingness by doing more than my share of it.)


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Employer Messing Me About - Thoughts?

    You still might be. You've very few employment rights yet.

    Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Employer Messing Me About - Thoughts?

    Google working time regulations. You must have a set amount of time off in a set period. They cannot force you to do 6 day weeks for however long they want.

    And as above, dont ask, DEMAND a copy of your contract. What job are you doing exactly?

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  6. #6
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    Really? Which law is that, because it certainly isn't the Working Time Regulations? A worker is entitled to one day per week off (basically, although there are still ways around that in certain circumstances). So an employer can force you to work six days weeks forever if they so desire.

    OP, you have been well advised by Emmzzi. Based on what you have said here the employer is doing nothing unlawful.
    They may be doing something - but you have provided no evidence that they are, so any advice about them not being able to force you is incorrect.

    At best b it's a guess based on nothing, and at worst it's going to get you sacked.
    But I wouldn't worry about it too much because the minute you go in demanding anything at all, you won't have any hours to worry about - you'll be dismissed.

    And if the reaction you got from the other site you posted on, which is mostly HR and employers, is anything to go by then you need to think carefully before you test the theory that your employer can't do anything.

    You are entitled by law to refuse to work overtime, unless your contact specifies that overtime is compulsory. Unless you have signed an opt out, you cannot work more that 48 hours per week, averaged over a 17 week period. And your employer is entitled to dismiss you for any almost any reason they like, including refusing to do overtime.

    You have next to no rights at all.
    So at two months into the job, you demand nothing, you ASK.
    And you decide whether you want the job or not before rocking the boat, because your are likely to be unemployed within the week if your employer decides they can live without you.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Employer Messing Me About - Thoughts?

    The sort of attitude suggested by some has allowed employers to do whatever they want and it's a slap in the face to all the workers who lost everything to fight for employment rights.
    Yes, if you rock the boat they may dismiss you, but do you really want to work for someone who's telling you "what do you want your contract for"???
    This should send alarm bells ringing, if you don't have a copy of your contract even in 10 years time they could say that you accepted all sorts of conditions and you won't have anything to defend yourself.
    Show some dignity and respect for past union activists and if this means you have to find another job, at least you can walk away with your head up, knowing that you've said no to unfair treatment (i call it slavery but some find this word offensive)


  8. #8
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    Find another job and THEN walk away. Principles lare a privilege of the financially stable.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Employer Messing Me About - Thoughts?

    knowing what employment sector you are in will help us enormously. If it is retail or events the TBH it is to be expected and if the latter I would be surprised if it wasnt the case. i would be asking for time off in lieu rather plus money if at a contracted overtime rate rather than just being paid the overtime. the thought of giving you a weekday and having to pay you may make them consider how necessary it is to have you doing this. when you see your contract you will be in a better position to get what suits you best without actually saying no


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by king12345 View Post
    The sort of attitude suggested by some has allowed employers to do whatever they want and it's a slap in the face to all the workers who lost everything to fight for employment rights.
    Yes, if you rock the boat they may dismiss you, but do you really want to work for someone who's telling you "what do you want your contract for"???
    This should send alarm bells ringing, if you don't have a copy of your contract even in 10 years time they could say that you accepted all sorts of conditions and you won't have anything to defend yourself.
    Show some dignity and respect for past union activists and if this means you have to find another job, at least you can walk away with your head up, knowing that you've said no to unfair treatment (i call it slavery but some find this word offensive)
    You are entirely misrepresenting my post, and you know that.

    The workers (mostly union members) who fought for these rights did so with their brothers and sisters in the movement.
    They didn't post their problems on internet forums, and they certainly didn't sit around fighting armchair revolutions with other peoples jobs.

    If the OP would like to nip down to their union branch, get some membership forms and start recruiting their colleagues in the army of workers fighting overtime, that'd be great. At least then they could get sacked for something that is actionable in law - trade union activity!

    There is a vast difference between hundreds, or indeed thousands, of workers acting in concert and solidarity, and some individual who isn't in a union and has an entire two months service under their belt when they need 24 to get an inkling of a case for unfair dismissal. Of course, the OP maybe didn't mean it when they actually says that they were worried they could be sacked for this.

    They're probably sitting on a big bank balance and don't need the job.
    But personally, I'm taking them at their word
    - if they are worried they could be sacked, then they deserve the truth, and that is that they may well be sacked.

    Telling them anything else is simply saying something that is untrue.

    For all your revolutionary fervor, I'd lay bets I've been part of more industrial struggles then you over the last 40+ years. And when the barricades go up I'll be on them.

    But what I won't be doing any time soon is lying to someone about the chances of them being sacked, telling them they have rights they don't, or suggesting that they singlehandedly take on the collective forces of capitalism so that someone else feels good about the fact they stood up for themselves and got sacked.

    The OP is entitled to resign or get sacked if they wish. They are entitled to engage in the class struggle if they wish. They are also entitled to the truth about where those decisions might lead.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Employer Messing Me About - Thoughts?

    Sangie, can you please explain where and when i didn't say the truth to the op?
    I said that if he rocks the boat they may dismiss him/her.
    Cannot make it clearer.
    Finding another job in a more ethical and lawful environment is also an option.
    Dignity and rights have no price, some people fight for them, some others become slave of the system for a little cash even if they have a choice.
    Your responses to many problems seem to be in favour of employers.
    I don't know what wars you fought, but as a union activist for the good part of half century i will never suggest to anyone to work for dodgy employers who refuse to release a copy of contract.
    Plenty of jobs here in UK, so no need to accept that some bandits take our dignity and workers rights from us.
    I have left jobs on day one for these reasons and being sacked for rocking the boat on my own, but i always walked away with my dignity and integrity.
    If the op is willing to work under any conditions it's their choice, but my advice remain unchanged: Find another job and get away from there.
    Or they could rock the boat at risk of being sacked.
    However, on a couple of occasions i found that rocking the boat and standing up for workers rights has the effect of gaining respect and trust from a lazy employer.
    Op's call.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Employer Messing Me About - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by king12345 View Post
    Sangie, can you please explain where and when i didn't say the truth to the op?
    I said that if he rocks the boat they may dismiss him/her.
    Cannot make it clearer.
    Finding another job in a more ethical and lawful environment is also an option.
    Dignity and rights have no price, some people fight for them, some others become slave of the system for a little cash even if they have a choice.
    Your responses to many problems seem to be in favour of employers.
    I don't know what wars you fought, but as a union activist for the good part of half century i will never suggest to anyone to work for dodgy employers who refuse to release a copy of contract.
    Plenty of jobs here in UK, so no need to accept that some bandits take our dignity and workers rights from us.
    I have left jobs on day one for these reasons and being sacked for rocking the boat on my own, but i always walked away with my dignity and integrity.
    If the op is willing to work under any conditions it's their choice, but my advice remain unchanged: Find another job and get away from there.
    Or they could rock the boat at risk of being sacked.
    However, on a couple of occasions i found that rocking the boat and standing up for workers rights has the effect of gaining respect and trust from a lazy employer.
    Op's call.
    Those are your choices, made in a different time. If you think they're are plenty of jobs in the UK and people can simply walk and pick or another one the same day, you haven't been living any place I know about recently. Maybe those are the right choices for you. But your post made it appear that they were the only right and principled choices. They are not. Supporting yourself and your family is also a principled choice. Putting food on the table is a principled choice. The world is not so easy a place as to have only one option on principles.

    The employer has not broken any laws. So the OP doesn't need to find a more lawful environment. And ethics are a matter of opinion, not fact. Asking or expecting someone to work overtime is not unlawful and it is not unethical. There's nothing dodgy in that. And they haven't refused to release a copy of the contract - if they are out of time they are only just, and it isn't something that is actionable in its own right in law. And none of that is supporting the employers side - it is pointing out facts.

    Nor did I say that they shouldn't rock the boat - I said that they should be prepared to be dismissed if they do. If they aren't, that's a bonus. But they certainly may be.

    As for rocking the boat and standing up for worker's rights (which don't actually appear to be in any danger here - there isn't a right not to work overtime) bully for you getting respect for it. I got sacked. And I'd do it again even if I got sacked. But i knew exactly what risks I was taking, I took them anyway, and I had no worries about doing so. Go back to post 3 - the OP states they were worried about getting sacked for refusing to do overtime. Does that suggest that they know the risks they are taking and are prepared to take them?

    If the OP wants to stick their head under the parapet and quietly get on with it until they find another job, that is a perfectly legitimate choice. Not everything is about furthering the class war and not everyone had subscribed to the struggle. You make it sound like acknowledging that choice or choosing it is spitting on the graves of workers. It isn't.


  13. #13
    Gold Account Holder king12345 Informative king12345 Informative king12345 Informative king12345 Informative



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    Default Re: Employer Messing Me About - Thoughts?

    You still haven't pointed out where and when i have lied to the op.
    "if you rock the boat you may be dismissed" has got only one meaning on this planet, difficult to misinterpret.
    You're still defending the employer as you think they haven't done anything wrong.
    Firstly they haven't provided a contract for the op to sign, which last time i checked was a legal requirement.
    They then said to the op: "what do you want a copy of the contract for?"
    This is perfectly normal in your world.
    We'll it's not, by any stretch of the imagination.
    Lastly, the employer lied to the op by saying that they would be required to work occasionally at weekends when in fact they need him every weekend.
    This is the nice employer who hasn't done anything wrong.
    I'm going to speculate here based on previous experience: The employer lures employees through the door with promises of permanent contract and nice hours, then they never give them a contract and keep them employed by the hour.
    Op, keep your head up and find another job, don't subscribe to these bandits' rules.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Employer Messing Me About - Thoughts?

    I think we've established how both you and Sangie feel about this, king12345. I suggest that further discussion takes place by PM or on a separate thread.

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Employer Messing Me About - Thoughts?

    I have havent signed an employment contract since 1977 and have had several jobs in the interim. What I have laways been given it a copy of the terms of service. However the OP's employer still has another fortnight to hand over said contract. Now bearing in mind the limited hours of the original promise it does raise questiosn about the honesty of the employers original statements and we still dont know anything about the job role so this leaves a big gap in our knowledge and thus limits suggestions on to what is normal or acceptable for the type of work they do.



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