Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

£6.99



Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1
    Basic Account Holder
    Do you record your calls?
    You'll regret it if you don't.
    orley Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Apr 2018
    Posts : 11 (0.06 post per day)

    Default removal of time off in lieu

    Hi all,
    I work in the NHS, when we work overtime there are two methods of renumeration, we can take it as paid hours or take it as time off in lieu of overtime worked.
    We are being told that if we do not use our toil within a certain time we lose the hours owed to us.
    This to me is the same as saying "if you do not spend your overtime pay within a certain time we will take it back".
    I can't see how they can legally do this as toil is a renumeration for hours worked, exactly the same as salary is, could this be a breach of contract?
    Does anyone have any thoughts on this please.

    Many thanks.


  2. #2
    Site Team fkofilee Authoritative fkofilee Authoritative fkofilee Authoritative fkofilee Authoritative fkofilee Authoritative fkofilee Authoritative fkofilee Authoritative fkofilee Authoritative fkofilee Authoritative fkofilee's Avatar



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Oct 2011
    Posts : 8,547 (3.35 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    Whats the time period? If its a year then might be holiday year? Apr - Mar for example?


  3. #3
    Basic Account Holder
    Do you record your calls?
    You'll regret it if you don't.
    orley Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Apr 2018
    Posts : 11 (0.06 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    I think it's 3 months.


  4. #4
    Classic Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Make a contribution
    sgtbush Novitiate sgtbush Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jul 2012
    Posts : 1,684 (0.74 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    They cannot re take toil back.
    In fact they cannot take ay hours off of you like annual leave you can roll over to the following year.
    I'm a civil servant too and they tried this with us. Our union took them to tribunal and won


  5. #5
    Basic Account Holder
    Do you record your calls?
    You'll regret it if you don't.
    orley Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Apr 2018
    Posts : 11 (0.06 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    Thankyou, could you tell me what union did this?


  6. #6
    Classic Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Make a contribution
    sgtbush Novitiate sgtbush Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jul 2012
    Posts : 1,684 (0.74 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    The POA


  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder
    Do you record your calls?
    You'll regret it if you don't.
    orley Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Apr 2018
    Posts : 11 (0.06 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    Thanks i will contact unison.


  8. #8
    Basic Account Holder
    Do you record your calls?
    You'll regret it if you don't.
    Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Nov 2016
    Posts : 646 (0.94 post per day)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtbush View Post
    They cannot re take toil back.
    In fact they cannot take ay hours off of you like annual leave you can roll over to the following year.
    I'm a civil servant too and they tried this with us. Our union took them to tribunal and won
    Sorry, but yes, actually they can they do - legally. YOUR employer is not the same as THEIR employer and the circumstances are different. Your advice is based on what your employer does, under your contact of employment, based on some specific points of law. The OP is not the same as you. What the OPs employer can or can't do is not based on what yours can do.

    The OP needs to consult their own union, and their own terms of contract .


  9. #9
    Classic Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Make a contribution
    sgtbush Novitiate sgtbush Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jul 2012
    Posts : 1,684 (0.74 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    Contracts will be different, granted but they will have similaritys.

    Our government contract states yo can only carry over 70.2 hours of annual leave to the next year.
    This was challenged by tribunal and judged to be unfair as it reduces the remuneration and working time directive. TOIL hours were also included.
    So on that basis the situations are more or less the same.


  10. #10
    Basic Account Holder
    Do you record your calls?
    You'll regret it if you don't.
    orley Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Apr 2018
    Posts : 11 (0.06 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    I did not think toil was classed as annual leave as you earn it for overtime so it is in fact the same as payment, also the point is that they are taking it away after 3 months if not used, most people are not being granted toil within 3 months as we are short staffed!
    Do you have any details of the tribunal as this could really help.


  11. #11
    Classic Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Make a contribution
    sgtbush Novitiate sgtbush Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jul 2012
    Posts : 1,684 (0.74 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    We are in the same predicament as you in regard that we build up toil hours and then struggle to take them for staffing issues.
    Remember toil is hours you have ALREADY WORKED. So in effect they are saying take them or lose them. That means you could work for no pay.
    That's the argument.
    That's why it was put forward with the annual leave argument.
    It was deemed at tribunal as unlawful even tho the contract said different. It comes under fairness and performance of contract and the work time directive.
    Contact the POA


  12. #12
    Basic Account Holder
    Do you record your calls?
    You'll regret it if you don't.
    Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Nov 2016
    Posts : 646 (0.94 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    We will have to disagree then, because I think you will find that the OP will be losing a lot of time if they depend on this advice. The NHS is not the Prison Service, and the circumstances of the POAs case are very different.

    It is, in fact, very simple for the OP. Do not "bank" hours. Use them. Or take the pay. The latter being an option very few people in public service have anyway. Three months is not an unreasonable amount of time to use up TOIL. There is no "end of year" deadline, as in the POA case, and that makes the critical difference. It was that deadline that made the system unfair, because people may have only worked the hours recently. That was actually the argument used. Had they had a rolling deadline, as the OPs employer is proposing, the tribunal would almost certainly have never happened.


  13. #13
    Classic Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Make a contribution
    sgtbush Novitiate sgtbush Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jul 2012
    Posts : 1,684 (0.74 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    The fundamental issue was the same.
    Bank toil hours due to operational needs
    Try to use toil hours but are refused cos staff shortages
    Lose toil hours after 3 months

    You state use toil hours or take the pay... You cant take the pay, you have to take the hours as leave.

    The POA case was primarily with annual leave roll over but had toil hours as a secondary issue.

    All I can say is to the op is contact your union. Our situation was very similar and you need to fight it. If we hadn't we would of lost it. We fought and won.
    On a side note on your overtime, the POA have just won a case that you can claim holiday pay on your overtime hours


  14. #14
    Basic Account Holder
    Do you record your calls?
    You'll regret it if you don't.
    Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative Sangie595 Highly informative



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Nov 2016
    Posts : 646 (0.94 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that. The fundamental issue isn't the same. Your situation was intrinsically flawed as a policy. Had the employer been cleverer about it, they would have done it in exactly the same way as the OPs employer has. It is entirely reasonable and lawful (to say nothing of being very common) for the employer to have a policy which limits the banking of TOIL, providing that the employer does not make it impossible to take the TOIL. Of course, in the POA case, that is exactly what the employer did - made it impossible to take the leave and then removed it.

    I do, however, agree that it is more likely that the union may be able to limit or mitigate the policy - assuming, of course, that they haven't agreed the policy!

    The underlying problem in both cases is that the employers have depended on overtime to run basic services because they cannot or will not recruit sufficient staff, so the accumulation of massive amounts of TOIL simply makes it harder to deliver the service, not easier.


  15. #15
    Gold Account Holder Emmzzi Authoritative Emmzzi Authoritative Emmzzi Authoritative Emmzzi Authoritative Emmzzi Authoritative Emmzzi Authoritative Emmzzi Authoritative Emmzzi Authoritative Emmzzi Authoritative Emmzzi Authoritative Emmzzi Authoritative



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jun 2012
    Posts : 5,792 (2.49 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    On a practical note, it seems like taking time off may be best - have you asked them to confirm when you can take the time off?

    Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

  16. #16
    Basic Account Holder
    Do you record your calls?
    You'll regret it if you don't.
    orley Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Apr 2018
    Posts : 11 (0.06 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    Thank you all for the input, i will find out if there is an agreement on removal of toil and also cotact unison because there is a policy which says toil should be paid if it cannot be taken for operational reasons.


  17. #17
    Royalties Account Holder ericsbrother Authoritative ericsbrother Authoritative ericsbrother Authoritative ericsbrother Authoritative ericsbrother Authoritative ericsbrother Authoritative ericsbrother Authoritative ericsbrother Authoritative ericsbrother Authoritative ericsbrother Authoritative ericsbrother Authoritative



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Nov 2012
    Posts : 15,281 (7.07 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    my OH gets offered TOIL to be taken in the a/l period (NHS)
    I used to get TOIL (education) which could be banked for the following year as well as some people liked to go skiing or holiday in New Zealand or whatever. a limit was then put on how much you could bank to stop people disappearing for 3 months Currently my holiday apy is paid out at end of year but due to adminicon cock up am getting it 6 months late. Used to have to take it as paid a/l in school summer holiday (I'm not f/t or a teacher so we dont all get the 6 weeks summer hols)but that got changed.
    I short, what you think is right may not be as the rules change without much fanfare about this so check first


  18. #18
    Gold Account Holder king12345 Informative king12345 Informative king12345 Informative king12345 Informative



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : May 2007
    Posts : 3,115 (0.75 post per day)

    Default Re: removal of time off in lieu

    It's much simpler than described above:
    You work overtime and cumulate toil.
    Put a request for this time before the 3 months deadline and give them a good notice.
    If they can't release you because they're short staffed they have to pay you or let you carry the tool into next period.
    Losing toil when you have followed the procedure and asked for this time off in writing is a contractual breach.
    It's as simple as "you work and get paid, you can't work for free because they're short staffed and can't release you to take toil".



Reclaim the Right Ltd. - reg.05783665 in the UK reg. office:- 923 Finchley Road London NW11 7PE
We use cookies to personalise content and ads and to provide social media features. We also share information about your use of our site with our advertising and analytics partners. See details