Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    What evidence do you have that they told you not to return to work, as opposed to (what they could claim) that you left work one day and never came back?

    And whilst I won't be commenting on any "rights" or "wrongs" not in evidence, I will point out for future reference that nobody is entitled to the holidays that they want, and resigning every time somebody says no would lead to many short periods of employment. An employer always has the right to refuse leave requests, or you dictate exactly when an employee takes all of their leave.


  2. #22
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    Hi all

    Thanks for replies so far. I now have an update

    They have sent me a message today, 15th May, to say they are only paying me for the eight days I worked this month. They have advised my notice period pay is being forfeited to cover the financial loss i have caused. I was an employee.

    Does an employer have the right to do this?


  3. #23
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    Do you think you've caused them financial loss?

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by honeybee13 View Post
    Do you think you've caused them financial loss?

    HB
    I was working on a product that was to be exhibited and they have said they are unable to exhibit the product now.


  5. #25
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    It's hard to see how that would stand up in law unless there's more to this than you've posted. You are entitled to resign! You aren't liable for any "losses" or inconvenience that causes them. And anyway you would be there now working on it if they hadn't decided to send you home.


    My inclination would be to take them to Employment Tribunal for unlawful deduction from wages, but do take professional advice before doing that.


    http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4125

    http://www.landaulaw.co.uk/unlawful-...on-from-wages/


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethel Street View Post
    It's hard to see how that would stand up in law unless there's more to this than you've posted. You are entitled to resign! You aren't liable for any "losses" or inconvenience that causes them. And anyway you would be there now working on it if they hadn't decided to send you home.


    My inclination would be to take them to Employment Tribunal for unlawful deduction from wages, but do take professional advice before doing that.


    http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4125

    http://www.landaulaw.co.uk/unlawful-...on-from-wages/
    Thanks again for getting back to me. I have not yet responded to their message.

    If I reply to them saying i consider this an unlawful deduction of wages and request they pay me my notice plus accrued holiday pay, would i be jeopardising my case at a later date?

    Also in your opinion, when would my employment have technically ended? They sent me an email late last night (15th). I gave my notice on 8th which is when they sent me home.


  7. #27
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    I wouldn't rush to say that just yet, you want to collect facts first. Let's see if people like Emmzzi or Sangie are able to add to what Ethel said.

    I would also be interested to know if it's better to go to a tribunal or to start a small claimsicon case for unlawful deduction.

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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    They have probably shot themselves in the foot by putting it in writing that they are refusing to pay your notice period. Simply sagging toy walked out and never came back would have been your word against theirs. So yes, based on there being no more to the story than this, I'd suggest a tribunal route - largely because they can't counter sue, and if they want to claim that you have done something which had resulted in a financial loss they'd have to initiate the claim themselves. And I doubt they would or could. But details are sketchy, and I wouldn't say that claiming financial loss wouldn't be possible - hence the tribunal route. In theory, an employer can sue for such things, but it rarely happens, and they'd need a strong case which I'm not convinced they would have.

    You must try to resolve this before the tribunal claim though. You can ask ACAS to start a pre claim Mediationicon (which must happen anyway, before a claim can be made). But I would, just for the sake of speed, probably write and say that they owe you notice pay and holiday pay, and they have no right in law to refuse to pay it, so you will be starting a tribunal claim in five working days unless you receive full payment before then. It may simply shake them enough to get the money without the hassle.


  9. #29
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    Quote Originally Posted by Sangie595 View Post
    They have probably shot themselves in the foot by putting it in writing that they are refusing to pay your notice period. Simply sagging toy walked out and never came back would have been your word against theirs. So yes, based on there being no more to the story than this, I'd suggest a tribunal route - largely because they can't counter sue, and if they want to claim that you have done something which had resulted in a financial loss they'd have to initiate the claim themselves. And I doubt they would or could. But details are sketchy, and I wouldn't say that claiming financial loss wouldn't be possible - hence the tribunal route. In theory, an employer can sue for such things, but it rarely happens, and they'd need a strong case which I'm not convinced they would have.

    You must try to resolve this before the tribunal claim though. You can ask ACAS to start a pre claim Mediationicon (which must happen anyway, before a claim can be made). But I would, just for the sake of speed, probably write and say that they owe you notice pay and holiday pay, and they have no right in law to refuse to pay it, so you will be starting a tribunal claim in five working days unless you receive full payment before then. It may simply shake them enough to get the money without the hassle.

    Thank you for the reply.


    The message received last night advised my employment has been terminated due to gross misconduct (they have cited performance issues which has never been raised before and I have had two or three pay rises during my employment). They haven't used the words summary dismissal but I think this is what they have done..? Therefore they wouldn't have to pay my notice period.


    I have done some reading online and am becoming confused whether I am claiming for unfair dismissal or wrongful dismissal. Which is it do you think please?


    Additionally, if for example it was found I was summarily dismissed fairly, should I not be paid for the time in between them asking me to leave the office last Tuesday and today after receiving the message my employment has been terminated for gross misconduct? My contract does not saying anything about being suspended with no pay but it does say employer is entitled to suspend me on full pay if it needs to investigate anything which may lead to the termination of my employment.



    Thanks


  10. #30
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    Be interested to see what the experts suggest but I'd think that what they've done would very likely be considered an Unfair Dismissal at Employment Tribunal for failure to follow reasonable procedures. Dismissing someone without carrying out an investigation and without giving them the chance to reply to the allegations is unlikely to be a fair process. And that's aside from the merits of their allegation, the question of how "performance issues" - capability - could amount to 'gross misconduct' and whether summary dismissal is within the reasonable range of responses by an employer. (In answer to your question, 'summary dismissal' is normally used to mean dismissal for gross misconduct without notice, ie employer doesn't have to give notice or pay you for the notice period.)


  11. #31
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    Oh yes, I'd agree! I thought they'd shot themselves in the foot admitting that they were refusing to pay the notice pay, but if they have actually claimed it as a summary dismissal after more than two years, then I think I'd be claiming unfair dismissal.

    However, and there's always a catch, whether it is worth pressing such a case may be questionable. I'm assuming the OP had another job and that is why they resigned. So if that job pays the same or more than the former job, that limits the claim. Not a reason not to do it of course, but certainly a reason to ponder the benefit versus the effort given that the OP, unless they have a union to support them or legal insurance, will have to self litigate.

    Sorry - having one of those days. I posted before is finished! I was going to add that, of course, the OP may find that simply the threat of a tribunal releases the money. It would be wise for the employer to not give the OP any more reason to want to think about unfair dismissal. Not that they have shown much wisdom so far...


  12. #32
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    Thank you for all of the replies. I will contact ACAS to get this started if they do not reconsider

    In their message they have said they reserve the right to take legal action against me for reputational damage and financial loss.

    After reading online, examples I can find are to do with not working notice and them having to organise cover. I did state on my letter i wouldnt be in on certain dates. However i was asked to leave on the day i gave notice. I assume this would be looked at as a suspension as i only received confirmation i was being dismissed yesterday. Therefore if for example they got a temp worker in, can they sue me for the cost of that even though they suspended me before i took an unauthorised absence?

    Additionally i incorrectly gave 28 days notice rather than one month. Will this give them grounds to sue me or count against me?

    I'm not sure if this is relevant but my job title is "Junior XXXXX"

    Thanks again


  13. #33
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    Hello,

    Sacking on the spot for gross misconduct is a bit of a myth, and a trap into which inexpeienced employers sometimes fall. Unless there has been due investigation, they cannot conclude it is GMC. A typcal procedure is
    - suspend pending investgation
    - invite to meeting to discuss evdence, and you can bring a union re or colleague
    - then perhaps dismiss
    - right to appeal

    In the absence of an internal company policy, the judge would want to know if ACAS conduct guidelines had been followed.
    I am assuming you have no paperwork from them and they would have to fabricate it to show this was in fact the case?

    Also mild performance issues are not gross misconduct. GMC is more like stealing or punching someone.

    http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3905

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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmzzi View Post
    Hello,

    Sacking on the spot for gross misconduct is a bit of a myth, and a trap into which inexpeienced employers sometimes fall. Unless there has been due investigation, they cannot conclude it is GMC. A typcal procedure is
    - suspend pending investgation
    - invite to meeting to discuss evdence, and you can bring a union re or colleague
    - then perhaps dismiss
    - right to appeal

    In the absence of an internal company policy, the judge would want to know if ACAS conduct guidelines had been followed.
    I am assuming you have no paperwork from them and they would have to fabricate it to show this was in fact the case?

    Also mild performance issues are not gross misconduct. GMC is more like stealing or punching someone.

    http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3905
    Thanks for your reply and the clarity. You are right in assuming i have no paperwork. In their message they have said they have raised my lack of communication on several occasions and as i have failed to communicate seriois delays in the project, this is part of their reason for dismissing me. I have had no formal disciplinary procedures in the past. My evidence against their point of incompetence is that my salary has been increased by 14k during my employment. Is this a valid response do you think?

    Also can you offer any opinion on my last post regarding them taking legal action against me (i saw your post was just one minute after mine so think there is a chance you may not have seen it?)


  15. #35
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    They have chosen to ask you to leave (can you evidence this?) before the end of your notice period which would severely limit any case against you.

    They would need to prove an actual financial loss (not just hurt feelings) and that they had tried to mitigate that loss.

    Are your skills so very unique no one could pick up the work? Have you handed over everything they may need like passwords etc?

    I suspect from what you describe they have no clue about actual law and are just waving big words around. But you need to make sure you have an audit trail and are squeaky clean!

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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmzzi View Post
    They have chosen to ask you to leave (can you evidence this?) before the end of your notice period which would severely limit any case against you.

    They would need to prove an actual financial loss (not just hurt feelings) and that they had tried to mitigate that loss.

    Are your skills so very unique no one could pick up the work? Have you handed over everything they may need like passwords etc?

    I suspect from what you describe they have no clue about actual law and are just waving big words around. But you need to make sure you have an audit trail and are squeaky clean!
    Hi, no unfortunately i don't think i have any evidence against this. I do have whatsapp message to this effect:

    Me: Hi it has been several days now since i left the office. Can you formalise my departure from the company?

    Senior manager: hi you have put us in a serious position and i am dealing with this currently please be patient

    Me: ok i understand, can you confirm i have been placed on garden leave?

    Senior manager: i cannot at this time

    Me: so i have been summarily dismissed then?

    Senior manager: this isn't a conversation for whatsapp. I will email you

    Me: ok thanks

    Would this constitute evidence?

    I also did a handover on the day which is evidenced in their message to me (we had to take a rushed handover)

    EDIT: in my letter i told them i would work my notice

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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    Well, it's far from definitive but the ET woukd look at "the balance of probabilities." In which if you were properly dismissed the repy would be "the letter with the outcome of your hearing is in the post."

    The advice you are getting here seems quite consistent from everyone (rare!)

    I'd probably be getting ACAS to talk me thrgh next steps. It may well be that the thought of paying ET fees and needing a lawyer makes them decide to cut their losses.

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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmzzi View Post
    Well, it's far from definitive but the ET woukd look at "the balance of probabilities." In which if you were properly dismissed the repy would be "the letter with the outcome of your hearing is in the post."

    The advice you are getting here seems quite consistent from everyone (rare!)

    I'd probably be getting ACAS to talk me thrgh next steps. It may well be that the thought of paying ET fees and needing a lawyer makes them decide to cut their losses.

    I will email them as per previous advice and commence with ACAS if they do not reconsider

    Thank you and to everyone else who has contributed. You have reassured me and given me the confidence to proceed with this


  19. #39
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    firstly, beware of "dereliction of duty" rather than unauthorised absence bt lest look at the practicalities. They have tolf you not to work your notice so expect to be paid for that time. They may well have got the procedures wrong and you can chase them for that but why?

    At the moment you are between 2 positions, you are leaving of yoru own accord or you have been fired. If they apy you the 4 weeks pay and say nothing the you have left and they havent required you to work your notice- smiles all round. If they dont pay you then you have been dismissed with a load of complications that wont look good for either side regardless of the eventual outcome of any court or tribunal decision.

    Wanting to take a few days off whe you arent there is a bit of a moot point so forget about that and keep to the bit about whetehr you get the correct pay at the end of your employment or not.

    You need to ask the right question in a coherent way at the end of the month

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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Been asked to leave but no advice on terms of departure

    I suspect, but I can't guarantee, that the threats are bluster to try to get you to back off. I emphasise that I suspect this to be the case. I would, however, have to be totally honest - if they had played this better, they could have dismissed you, and it is not entirely impossible that they may not have a case to argue. But if they did, I'd expect the letter to be from a solicitor. If it were, I'd be slightly more concerned. Contrary to Ethel's assertion, I think that done well, they certainly could have dismissed, and for gross misconduct, based on your stated intention to fail to attend work having been told that you must. But that is by the by - they didn't. So that information is really good advice for the future - no employee has the right to tell an employer when they will take leave, only to ask, and your actions were very ill advised.

    So until or unless a solicitor is involved, I'd consider it just so much hot air. But, and this is a big but, please remember that you are slightly prejudiced and I suspect that there are more facts than in evidence here. It's pretty rare that someone quits just because their employer said no to a holiday request. So advice is based on what you tell us, not what you haven't! I think they've been stupid and left themselves vulnerable - and that may be the case. But without the full story we are limited to commenting on what someone chooses to tell us, and there's obviously more bad blood here than just them not paying the notice period etc. And it sounds like it is on both sides. Maybe for good reason, maybe not. But that isn't relevant to the law. It doesn't care if you love each other or hate each other. Being a bad employer isn't illegal. Or a bad employee. So just make sure that your actions are based on all the facts, not just the ones you like. That's probably the biggest mistake people make - thinking that their actions are the only reasonable ones, and nobody could think otherwise. Unfortunately, tribunals are littered with examples of that not being the case...



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