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    • I've just started to read Carey v HSBC on Casemine, 
    • Thank you for that "read me", It's a lot to digest, lots of legal procedure. There was one thing that I was going to mention to you,  but in one of the conversations in that thread it was mentioned that there may be spies on the Forum,  this is something that I've read quite some time ago in a previous thread. What I had in mind was to wait for the thirty days after their reply to my CCA request and then send the unenforceable letter. I was hoping that an absence of signature could be the Silver Bullet but it seems that there are lot of layers to peel on this Onion.  
    • love the extra £1000 charge for confidentialy there BF   Also OP even if they don't offer OOC it doesn't mean your claim isn't good. I had 3 against EVRi that were heard over the last 3 weeks. They sent me emails asking me to discontinue as I wouldn't win. Went infront of a judge and won all 3.    Just remember the law is on your side. The judges will be aware of this.   Where you can its important to try to point out at the hearing the specific part of the contract they breached. I found this was very helpful and the Judge made reference to it when they gave their judgements and it seemed this was pretty important as once you have identified a specific breach the matter turns straight to liability. From there its a case of pointing out the unlawfullness of their insurance and then that should be it.
    • I know dx and thanks again for yours and others help. I was 99.999% certain last payment was over six years ago if not longer.  👍
    • Paragraph 23 – "standard industry practice" – put this in bold type. They are stupid to rely on this and we might as well carry on emphasising how stupid they are. I wonder why they could even have begun to think some kind of compelling argument – "the other boys do it so I do it as well…" Same with paragraph 26   Paragraph 45 – The Defendants have so far been unable to produce any judgements at any level which disagree with the three judgements…  …court, but I would respectfully request…   Just the few amendments above – and I think it's fine. I think you should stick to the format that you are using. This has been used lots of times and has even been applauded by judges for being meticulous and clear. You aren't a professional. Nobody is expecting professional standards and although it's important that you understand exactly what you are doing – you don't really want to come over to the judge that you have done this kind of thing before. As a litigant in person you get a certain licence/leeway from judges and that is helpful to you – especially if you are facing a professional advocate. The way this is laid out is far clearer than the mess that you will get from EVRi. Quite frankly they undermine their own credibility by trying to say that they should win simply because it is "standard industry practice". It wouldn't at all surprise me if EVRi make you a last moment offer of the entire value of your claim partly to avoid judgement and also partly to avoid the embarrassment of having this kind of rubbish exposed in court. If they do happen to do that, then you should make sure that they pay everything. If they suddenly make you an out-of-court offer and this means that they are worried that they are going to lose and so you must make sure that you get every penny – interest, costs – everything you claimed. Finally, if they do make you an out-of-court offer they will try to sign you up to a confidentiality agreement. The answer to that is absolutely – No. It's not part of the claim and if they want to settle then they settle the claim as it stands and don't try add anything on. If they want confidentiality then that will cost an extra £1000. If they don't like it then they can go do the other thing. Once you have made the amendments suggested above – it should be the final version. court,. I don't think we are going to make any more changes. Your next job good to make sure that you are completely familiar with it all. That you understand the arguments. Have you made a court familiarisation visit?
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Being made redundant but made to sign a restrictive agreement & not offered Early Retirement


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After 25 years with my employer, a large UK financial business, I am being made redundant at the age of 51 as they are closing my office. They offered me Voluntary Redundancy with enhanced terms on the basis I signed an agreement giving up my right to an undiscounted pension which may be otherwise payable on my redundancy. (Due to my length of service, I still have a final salary pension). I have not been given a reason why I have had to sign this other than 'it's policy'.

 

I was hoping to take Early Retirement but the minimum pension age is 55 now. None of my other colleagues have been given this agreement as far as I know but it could be they are either no longer in the final salary scheme or are over 55.

I wondered of anyone had thoughts on :-

 

a) Should I have been offered Independent Legal Advice as I have been given an agreement to sign?

b) The implications if I don't sign the agreement - could they make me take another job elsewhere?

c) Even though they are not offering me Early Retirement, could there be this option open in view of the wording the agreement?

 

Any thoughts on this would be welcome.

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Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

Others know about the pension aspects, but I didn't think they could force you to give up your pension like that. Obviously the money matters to you.

 

Try speaking to TPAS, the pension advisory service, they have a good helpline.

 

Best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Do not sign without taking legal advice! Arrange to see a solicitor today. My reading is that the the company is trying to use the enhanced VR to buy you out now (for a fixed sum) of a potential unknown future liability to them (the undiscounted pension). I'm pretty sure they can't force you to give up your pension but they could withdraw the enhanced VR if you don't agree and just offer you the statutory minimum redundancy. Unless there is already something in your contract that commits them to offering more than the statutory minimum redundancy - check that before you see a solicitor.

 

I would have thought that legally this is a Settlement Agreement, in which case you must have independent legal advice before you sign it, from a solicitor of your choosing but paid for by your employer.

 

Do some back-of-envelope calculations on what the enhanced VR is worth compared to statutory redundancy. Statutory redundancy rates on gov.uk - note the weekly maximum as well as the number of weeks limit. And can you estimate what the undiscounted pension is worth to you? I presume it's just the ability to take an early pension undiscounted that you are being invited to give up, not the whole pension.

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Thanks for the replies Honeybee & Ethel Street. Glad I posted this as you have helped already & certainly confirmed my thoughts.

 

Unfortunately, I have already signed the agreement, the reason being I did not want to re-apply for my role along with others in my position which would mean I would be under more stress. I also need to mention I have a mental disability which I have made known to my employer and in all honesty I don’t think I would cope with the added pressure . In any event, my area manager told me at a later date I would not have got the job anyway as I was not the best candidate so I would have been made compulsory redundant anyway, in which case there would have been no agreement to sign.

 

Part of the reason I am writing this now for help is is I have put in a grievance & I have a meeting tomorrow with my employer so I want to make sure I put in a good case. I have already put in a complaint to the pension scheme administrator but I will not get the outcome until after I have left employment which will be too late.

 

Two areas I intend to raise are a) the fact I wasn’t offered legal advice & therefore the agreement cannot be binding and b) I withdrew my VR applications week after the closing date as I believed I was entitled to Early Retirement as a further option. I was told I was within timescale to do this verbally but I heard nothing more about it.

 

To clarify, I am giving up the undiscounted pension until I am 60, when my pension is paid. The difference between the enhanced VR package and being able to take the pension is over £120k so a huge difference (assuming I live until 60 !)

 

In addition, I will have the comfort of a monthly pension I can afford to live off. Due to my disability, I think it will be hard to find a job that I can do at a reasonable wage to support my wife and 2 children, so it will take the pressure off immensely and will give me the chance to try and get better.

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you have just cost yourself your pemsion rights for the next 15 years. In many schemes when a person is made compulsarily redundant the company has to keep paying into the pension scheme until your normal retirement date. thsi is normally doe by way of a lump sum to make up the amount rther than on a monthly basis and this would have given you another 15 years contributions inot the scheme so you pension would have been nearly twice as big as it will now be and also inflation will have been taken care of wheras you pension will now be frozen at todays rates.

 

Yes, they should have told you to seek legal advice, most employers will pay a nominal £100 or so towards the cost of that as well because it is cheaper in the long run than being on the losing end of a pensions claim in a few years time.

they are laughing all the way to the bank over this.

Contact the pensions Advisory Service to see if they have breached any regulation that will allow you to undo this. You may well end up with less redundancy pay but so what, you can get another job but you will never get this money back otherwise.

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If I were you I would be asking for the grievance hearing to be postponed to enable me to take legal advice and I would arrange an appointment with an employment solicitor asap. Amongst other issues I would discuss with the solicitor would be whether this was a Settlement Agreement and so invalid without legal advice and whether the company had acted improperly in relation to your mental health disability under the Equality Act. I can't say what the answers are, you need professional legal advice.

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