Hi all,

I am posting this mail to get help and great advice with regard to a court order to obtain evidences as Fraud happened to my phone account.

Police team is investigating the case . They arrested a Suspect too. The police team requested evidences to implicate suspect and put the matter before court .

When all these evidences such as Call Recordings and mail contacts which perpetrator allegedly had with the phone company were requested from the company , they told me to get a Court Order and submit so that they will produce all evidences requested.

So Please let me know the correct 'Application Form' to apply for getting a Court Order to make the phone company to produce necessary evidences they hold to me.

Should I apply for Norwich Pharmacal Order in this case ?

If so , please tell me can I apply myself ?

Which is the correct Court Form for this NPO order - N208 or N244 or any other ?

It would be a great help and I will be grateful for all who advise.

If the police want the evidence then I don't understand why they're not able to approach the company and to get it themselves. They are much more powerful than you and I would have thought that the company would jump to attention.

Which company are we talking about here?

I'm really quite amazed that the police have arrested somebody and want to prosecute them and yet are asking you to collect the evidence for them. Either I've misunderstood – or something doesn't ring true.

agree doesn't sound right

and sar would do the same thing

CPR 31.16 is the appropriate legislation...using an N244

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part31#31.16

Although I must agree you seem to be going about this the wrong way?

The existing Data Protection Act regulations are being supplemented by the new European GDPR which come in force on 25 May.

Andy

You seem to have a penchant for tying yourself in unnecessary procedural knots.

I base this on both this thread (where the police can get the evidence they need... the most they need do if the telco is 'being difficult' over YOUR call records, rather than the offender's calls, is get you to sign a form consenting to the release of your data), and also the thread

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?470168-Judgment-set-aside-hearing..&p=4952436#post4952436

where it is unclear what of the advice you took, and what the outcome was ........

If the police want the evidence then I don't understand why they're not able to approach the company and to get it themselves. They are much more powerful than you and I would have thought that the company would jump to attention.

 

Which company are we talking about here?

 

I'm really quite amazed that the police have arrested somebody and want to prosecute them and yet are asking you to collect the evidence for them. Either I've misunderstood – or something doesn't ring true.

I'm going out on a limb here, but based on the fact the police can insist the company supply details for any calls the OP didn't make, it seems likely either the police want the OP to look at all the call records and identify which they did make, or ask the OP to give details of calls they made.

The police can request the call records from the telco., and if the telco say "of course we'll release records of any offence, but we need the OP's permission to release any records that may have been their calls and not the offender's", then all the OP need do is provide the police with a form consenting to the telco. releasing the records.

I've known the opposite, for the telco. to refuse to release to the account holder records of calls made by offenders where it was clear they weren't made by the account holder, and were never going to be shown on the account holder's bill. (For example, where a phone was stolen at , and the account holder stated that they had made no calls after that time / date. They'd release them to the police though.

You seem to have a penchant for tying yourself in unnecessary procedural knots,.............................................................. and also the thread https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?470168-Judgment-set-aside-hearing..&p=4952436#post4952436

where it is unclear what of the advice you took, and what the outcome was ........

Thanks for your response. I am not penchant for just typing... I am sorry I couldnt come online because of some personal problems to post the outcome for the thread you mentioned which was poste on 2 Oct 2016. The outcome was very satisfactory . I WON the case . Defendant coudnt prove his side instead paid my wages. Please accept my apologies for not posting then.

The problem I face now is completely different one. See the other replies from me.

Thank you very much for all who replied and advised.

I am now briefing some points for consideration with regard to Police action.

Its around 06 months since I reported this Fraud to police via Action Fraud . Then Police had statement from me to investigate. Upon my complaint they arrested suspect and interviewed and then released as Suspect denied Fraud. Police said told me no evidence to continue . I many more times told them by mails and phone calls to get the evidences from the Mobile company such as mails, calls to prove the case giving all the details of mobile company contacts .

But Police ddnt do instead they after months told me to get all these evidences myself and send to them to decide prosecution. You know when I sent mails or letters I ddnt even got a reply from Police who is handling my case. I dont know why .

And then I applied SAR to get all evidences from the mobile company. After a month , They sent me some Notes with some details But denied sending me the Calls recordings and some mails which they said as those calls were not made by me and it doesnt come under my personal data so that they cant disclose to me. .

Mobile company informed me that '' We have located a number calls but we are currently unable to provide you with a copy of these due to the fact you were not the person making the call(s) in question. The information that you are seeking relates to a third party and although they were purporting to be you a copy of these calls does not constitute your personal data as defined by the Data Protection Act 1998.''

Further , they told me If Police requested Mobile company directly then they would produce to the police team . So I told Police to request the company and waited . I was struggling to contact the Police handling my case . May be he was busy or backlog of inquiries..!! I dont know. Unfortunately the Police conatacted me nearly after 02 months , saying that the Mobile company's Police Disclosure Team has required a court order to produce all evidences to the police.

When I contact the mobile company inquiring about this court order they told me that '' We will not be able to supply the information without a court order, normally when the police request information from us it is completed using RIPA, Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, your case was discussed and did not fall into these criteria.As your case was classified as Interception this would be outside our remit to supply such information without a court order.''

Now I am really in a miserable situation. If I can do myself to get this court order I will . Because I find difficulties to hire a Solicitor as I am having very very low income . Please help..

Thank you very much for all who replied and advised.

I am now briefing some points for consideration with regard to Police action.

 

Its around 06 months since I reported this Fraud to police via Action Fraud . Then Police had statement from me to investigate. Upon my complaint they arrested suspect and interviewed and then released as Suspect denied Fraud. Police said told me no evidence to continue . I many more times told them by mails and phone calls to get the evidences from the Mobile company such as mails, calls to prove the case giving all the details of mobile company contacts .

 

But Police ddnt do instead they after months told me to get all these evidences myself and send to them to decide prosecution. You know when I sent mails or letters I ddnt even got a reply from Police who is handling my case. I dont know why .

 

And then I applied SAR to get all evidences from the mobile company. After a month , They sent me some Notes with some details But denied sending me the Calls recordings and some mails which they said as those calls were not made by me and it doesnt come under my personal data so that they cant disclose to me. .

 

Mobile company informed me that '' We have located a number calls but we are currently unable to provide you with a copy of these due to the fact you were not the person making the call(s) in question. The information that you are seeking relates to a third party and although they were purporting to be you a copy of these calls does not constitute your personal data as defined by the Data Protection Act 1998.''

 

Further , they told me If Police requested Mobile company directly then they would produce to the police team . So I told Police to request the company and waited . I was struggling to contact the Police handling my case . May be he was busy or backlog of inquiries..!! I dont know. Unfortunately the Police conatacted me nearly after 02 months , saying that the Mobile company's Police Disclosure Team has required a court order to produce all evidences to the police.

 

When I contact the mobile company inquiring about this court order they told me that '' We will not be able to supply the information without a court order, normally when the police request information from us it is completed using RIPA, Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, your case was discussed and did not fall into these criteria.As your case was classified as Interception this would be outside our remit to supply such information without a court order.''

 

Now I am really in a miserable situation. If I can do myself to get this court order I will . Because I find difficulties to hire a Solicitor as I am having very very low income . Please help..

So, I was on the mark with:

I'm going out on a limb here, but based on the fact the police can insist the company supply details for any calls the OP didn't make, it seems likely either the police want the OP to look at all the call records and identify which they did make, or ask the OP to give details of calls they made.

 

The police can request the call records from the telco., and if the telco say "of course we'll release records of any offence, but we need the OP's permission to release any records that may have been their calls and not the offender's", then all the OP need do is provide the police with a form consenting to the telco. releasing the records.

 

I've known the opposite, for the telco. to refuse to release to the account holder records of calls made by offenders where it was clear they weren't made by the account holder, and were never going to be shown on the account holder's bill. (For example, where a phone was stolen at , and the account holder stated that they had made no calls after that time / date. They'd release them to the police though.

What outcome do you want?

Prosecution? Leave it to the police.

The police can get a court order if they need. You muddying the waters isn’t required.

Was it interception of your calls or calls made by the third party?

Where did they get “interception” from?

It feels like we are getting half a story here .....

Sorry, I ddnt include the exact Fraud done to my account.

In fact , the suspect used all my personal details , pw etc.. and contacted company impersonate me thus got a expensive Mobile device . He changed my original address , mails etc . He had many more calls with the mobile company until he received the device. Thats why company has stated as ' We have located a number calls but we are currently unable to provide you with a copy of these due to the fact you were not the person making the call(s) in question.''

So it was an interception as per company's law. Hope I elaborated the matter.

Can I apply for the Order using N 244 ? PLEASE ADVISE. I will appreciate and be thankful to all replies.

CPR 31.16 is the appropriate legislation...using an N244

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part31#31.16

 

Although I must agree you seem to be going about this the wrong way?

 

The existing Data Protection Act regulations are being supplemented by the new European GDPR which come in force on 25 May.

 

Andy

Thanks for reply. Please see all my replies and advise.

Sorry, I ddnt include the exact Fraud done to my account.

 

In fact , the suspect used all my personal details , pw etc.. and contacted company impersonate me thus got a expensive Mobile device . He changed my original address , mails etc . He had many more calls with the mobile company until he received the device. Thats why company has stated as ' We have located a number calls but we are currently unable to provide you with a copy of these due to the fact you were not the person making the call(s) in question.''

 

So it was an interception as per company's law. Hope I elaborated the matter.

You are again over complicating things.

“So it was an interception as per company's law” : the company don’t make the law. It was a fraud and the police can gather the evidence and the CPS can prosecute.

If the company insist on a court order to release information, the police and CPS should be the people to do this, not you.

From what you have said this wasn’t a case of interception of telecommunications being the ongoing offence (intercepting the communications of others can be an offence under RIPA).

Perhaps the telco suspect the offender got your details and password by “interception”, but that isn’t really relevant - let the police & CPS act. If they aren’t acting : you going for a court order

a) is going to be expensive using a solicitor

b) you’ll tie yourself in knots trying to do it “on your own” (you might get an order and then find you haven’t asked for EXACTLY the right order!)

c) Ultimately likely won’t help much.

CPR 31.16 is the appropriate legislation...using an N244

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part31#31.16

 

Although I must agree you seem to be going about this the wrong way?

 

The existing Data Protection Act regulations are being supplemented by the new European GDPR which come in force on 25 May.

 

Andy

Andy’s reply is correct ...... for the OP asking about THEIR data.

It doesn’t remain correct once the OP clarifies it is the offender’s data the OP wants (such as the address the offender changed the account to to get a phone sent to them). This isn’t the OP’s personal data and the telco doesn’t have to release it under a SAR, either before or after GDPR comes into force.

Not sure a civil court route can be used to obtain information that will then be used to prosecute someone for a criminal offence. Or if a civil court order can be used, then the application would have to state reasons for the request and confirm scope of how the data will be used.

Agree with previous comments, that the Police should get you to consent to your data being obtained by Police and the Police should be making the request. I am not sure why a member of the public having suffered a criminal offence against them should be required to get involved in the investigation process. If it were me I would be making a complaint to the Police and asking them to do their job.

Now I FEEL LIKE TO DO AS YOU SUGGESTED. I may find difficult seeing solicitor as it seems to be expensive . When I contacted a Solicitor explaining the matter and Norwich Pharmacal Order , he sent me the following ;

'' My fees for a NP order will be in the region of £5-15000 plus vat in advance of carrying out the services ( the ‘Retainer’) . You will also need court fees in the region of £2000. we need circa 5-7 days ''

I was about to faint after reading the cost for the court order and lawyer fees. will this order cost as such ?

The police told me that company require a court order. Thats all . When I asked who needs to get this order , you , the police team or me ? he still ddnt send me reply . I wll try to contact him again. Police in charged already told that the case has been transferred to a Detective and CPS ( Crown Prosecution Service ) to decide prosecution upon gathering evidences .

As an ordinary member of the public, how would you know how to get the information required for Police/CPS to use to prosecute someone ?

Having worked in financial services, where we did occasionally receive requests from Police and members of the public, from a pracitcal point of view it was always the Police that made such requests related to criminal matters and we had staff that specifically dealt with such requests.

They had to provide the information in a certain way that was acceptable to Police/CPS for them to use.

I cannot remember ever seeing a member of the public obtaining a court order that allowed data not involving them directly e.g a phone call from a third party or document fraud by a third party, to be released. Such a court order would need a Solicitors to prepare and I am not sure an NPO is the process.

Hi all ,

I am again thankful to all you those who advised me for my problems. I contacted Police and Mobile co and explained in details about what is interception in my case. After weeks a new officer from Mobile co told me and sent mail apologising for the incorrect / wrong advice and information given by the one who handled my inquiries . Now they said No need for a court order to disclose these evidences. This is what they said '' the Police can send a request to Mobile co Disclosure police team under Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) request and the copy call can only be provided once in receipt of a production order from the police SPOC.''

If Police make sure that the alledged suspect is to be implicated upon identifying voice and other email contacts suspect had with the mobile co, then they will produce a case before a judge. As its a criminal case,

Can I ask the Judge upon decides Frausdster is guilty, then can I ask the Judge to make Fraudster to pay a compensation to crime victim - me ?

What would be the punishement for the Fraudster - jail for some days ? or just release him giving a warning ?

I will be very much grateful for all your replies and advice.

If fraud has been identified, the mobile phone company should no longer be chasing you for the cost of the phone / calls made.

Then, they are the victim of the fraud, not you.

As a result, I doubt you'd be in line for any compensation more than a token sum.

The punishment will depend on:

a) first the fraudster being prosecuted, and then being found guilty,

b) the circumstances of the case (the loss involved, if there was any abuse of trust or position)

c) the value involved, and if there were other frauds also perpetrated by the offender,

d) any mitigating or exacerbating factors, and the defendant's prior character, and

e) which court the defendant is sentenced in (cases may be heard as summary cases, on indictment, or if found guilty in Magistrates Court, the court can pass the sentencing on to the Crown Court if they feel their sentencing powers are insufficient).

Fraud by false representation

S.1 Fraud Act:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/1

(3) A person who is guilty of fraud is liable—

 

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both);

 

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or to a fine (or to both).

Magistrates Court Sentencing Guidelines

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/the-magistrates-court-sentencing-guidelines/

then there are at least 8 steps that get considered, with multiple factors to each step:

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/item/fraud/

So, there are a wide range of possible outcomes, and without MUCH more detail about the offence(s) and offender, no-one is going to be able to predict beyond that wide range.