Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    Quote Originally Posted by BazzaS View Post
    No, there should be an investigation which includes your version of events.
    However, events may have been confirmed by others : were there other witnesses who may have confirmed what was said?
    No there was noone else there, we were outside the bar having a cigarette.


  2. #22
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    Quote Originally Posted by king12345 View Post
    This sounds like a small company way of dealing.
    How many employees are there?
    Is it a small business with a few employees?
    I know it's not justification to avoid correct procedures, but with less than a year service you are more or less stuffed, unless you can clearly prove discrimination.
    They employ over 100 people across 3 different offices... so no, they're not exactly small!


  3. #23
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    Quote Originally Posted by username1984 View Post
    No there was noone else there, we were outside the bar having a cigarette.
    Mind you, you still haven't answered:

    Quote Originally Posted by BazzaS View Post
    It may not be your recollection of events but are you saying that nothing along those lines was said at all?
    .........
    With hindsight : was the conversation entirely innocent / appropriate AND incapable of being taken the wrong way?
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by BazzaS View Post
    What IS your recollection of events?



  4. #24
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    Quote Originally Posted by username1984 View Post
    I didn’t say that - I said I said that. “Apparently”. That’s what he said I said.

    That is not what I said, I asked if she was frisky and hard to manage when she was drinking but I didn’t in any way allude to her sexual activity levels. I went on to say how I was a nightmare when I was drinking and how I wanted to dance all night.

    The conversation we were having was in no way a sexual one.
    Quote Originally Posted by BazzaS View Post
    Mind you, you still haven't answered:


    and
    I did

    We were talking about a particular night out him and his girlfriend had and I was saying how pretty she looked. He was saying how she got really drunk that night and was shaking his head.


  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by username1984 View Post
    I did

    We were talking about a particular night out him and his girlfriend had and I was saying how pretty she looked. He was saying how she got really drunk that night and was shaking his head.
    “How pretty she looked”, yet you used the term ‘frisky’?
    Or are you saying you never used the term ‘frisky’?

    You need to get your story precise, although it seems you are trying to defend the indefensible. If you didn’t behave inappropriately, stop obfuscating and say exactly what your recollection is.
    Do you think your employers (or an ET!) aren’t going to dig just as deep as the enquiries you’ll face here?!

    Although:
    Quote Originally Posted by username1984 View Post
    That is not what I said, I asked if she was frisky and hard to manage when she was drinking but I didn’t in any way allude to her sexual activity levels. I went on to say how I was a nightmare when I was drinking and how I wanted to dance all night.
    Still inappropriate. Easy to see how this could have been taken to have been in a sexual context.

    Even if you didn’t mean it in a sexual context, and you were lucky enough for it not to have been perceived in a sexual way:
    Inappropriate for a work scenario.
    Your best mate who you don’t work with : up to you.
    A work colleague: just plain wrong. The issue appears to be that you just don’t understand that.


  6. #26
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    I'm really not sure why you're having such a difficult time understanding what I said when I've now written it twice.

    We were talking about a particular night out him and his girlfriend had, he said how she felt very conscious in what she was wearing because she is barrel shapped and I was saying she had no need to feel conscious and she looked really pretty in the photos on facebook. He said she got really drunk that night and was shaking his head. I said was she frisky and hard to manage when she was drunk (meaning was she a live wire - I was quite animated when I said it) it in no way alluded to anything sexual.


  7. #27
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    Quote Originally Posted by BazzaS View Post
    Do you think your employers (or an ET!) aren’t going to dig just as deep as the enquiries you’ll face here?!
    My employer didn't dig deep at all, they didn't even speak to me about it which is what I've posted on here about.

    I'm beginning to wonder how valuable your advice is when you're unable to read and understand my post.


  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by username1984 View Post
    I'm really not sure why you're having such a difficult time understanding what I said when I've now written it twice.

    We were talking about a particular night out him and his girlfriend had, he said how she felt very conscious in what she was wearing because she is barrel shapped and I was saying she had no need to feel conscious and she looked really pretty in the photos on facebook. He said she got really drunk that night and was shaking his head. I said was she frisky and hard to manage when she was drunk (meaning was she a live wire - I was quite animated when I said it) it in no way alluded to anything sexual.
    I’m not having a difficult time.
    Your comment was easily interpreted as sexual, leading to the difficult time you’ve had by being given a warning. The process wasn’t “by the book”, but that is irrelevant given the outcome would have been the same even if the process had been followed perfectly!

    Yet you still can’t see that your behaviour was inappropriate. Inappropriate, even if not taken sexual, and it’s easy to see how it can have been perceived as a sexually based comment.

    If you can’t see that then your perception is skewed.
    They’ll easily demonstrate that at an ET. They’ll then use that to demonstrate how you could think you were a great fit in the team and a team player, when they’ll say you weren’t.
    Do you have any documented feedback / appraisals when they said how great you were? Or any documentary evidence?
    If not I can see what they'll say (rightly, or wrongly!) at an ET.....


  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by username1984 View Post
    My employer didn't dig deep at all, they didn't even speak to me about it which is what I've posted on here about.

    I'm beginning to wonder how valuable your advice is when you're unable to read and understand my post.
    Ahem. There is a difference between “unable to read and understand” and “able to read and understand, but reaches a conclusion you don’t like”.
    Bottom line : talking about a colleague’s partner / girlfriend / boyfriend as “frisky” is just plain inappropriate, even if it couldn’t have been taken as a sexually-based comment. It easily could be taken as sexually based though. If you are still resistant to accepting this, what was the point of asking for opinions??

    I’ve explained how they’ll easily demolish your assertions that:
    a) the warning was incorrect or discriminatory (even if the process was flawed, a perfect process would reach the same conclusion even with “your side” that you’ve presented here)
    b) your dismissal was unlawful from being based on a protected characteristic. Unless you have documentary evidence of them saying what a great team player you were, they’ll use your lack of insight to say you again had no insight and thought you were a great team player and a good fit with the team.

    You don’t like my interpretation? Fine, let’s see what interpretation one of the experts like Becky or Emmzzi have, if they see this thread and feel they can contributeicon. That might give further points to how this will likely pan out.

    Unless you have documentary evidence you’ll have to take your chances at an ET....... in the end it is their interpretation (rather than yours or mine) that’ll count.


  10. #30
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    But if I had said something that was inappropriate, I would have apologised. I would never intend to offend anyone, especially with a sexual comment as that would have been very inappropriate. But it was never said or meant in a sexual context.

    However, the person in question, and other colleagues have made many a sexual comment to me (and to the colleague that complained about me) so even if I had meant it in a sexual way, my comment is no different to others. So to me, it feels like a double standard, coupled with the fact it was never a sexual conversation in teh first place and was turned into a really sexually lewd conversation when quoted in the warning.

    Yes I have it all documented that they were happy with my work etc. When I received the warning, I emailed a written grievance that my colleague raised a complaint to me when I don't believe he would have raised the same complaint against a male colleague. And the fact there was no investigation and his word was taken and mine not even sought, was also unfair. And to determine that the action would have been the same.. would it? Is a written warning really what would have happened had the matter been dealt with properly? Why did I receive a warning when the same action hasn't been taken against anyone else?

    My grievance wasn't dealt with and I was then dismissed. That doesn't seem fair to me at all. I know I can't take an objective view as I'm embroiled in this. But I feel that I was dismissed because of my complaint and not the performance. As my performance had only ever been praised before. Even in the email when I received my written warning, it stated that I was a valued member of the team and they were keen to continue working with me.


  11. #31
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    Quote Originally Posted by username1984 View Post
    But if I had said something that was inappropriate, I would have apologised. I would never intend to offend anyone, especially with a sexual comment as that would have been very inappropriate. But it was never said or meant in a sexual context.
    Hang on, then.
    Is it your position that it just wasn’t inappropriate to describe a colleague’s girlfriend as frisky, and that it couldn’t have been taken as being in a sexual context?.

    Did you ever complain about comments made by others you felt were sexual and inappropriate, that you are now using to excuse your behaviour?


    Quote Originally Posted by username1984 View Post
    Even in the email when I received my written warning, it stated that I was a valued member of the team and they were keen to continue working with me.
    You can be of value to a team even if you still aren’t a “good fit” within a team, and they can say they were trying to maintain a team dynamic / trust & confidence”, but events after demonstrated that this still wasn’t sufficient.


  12. #32
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    Quote Originally Posted by BazzaS View Post
    Hang on, then.
    Is it your position that it just wasn’t inappropriate to describe a colleague’s girlfriend as frisky, and that it couldn’t have been taken as being in a sexual context?.

    Did you ever complain about comments made by others you felt were sexual and inappropriate, that you are now using to excuse your behaviour?



    You can be of value to a team even if you still aren’t a “good fit” within a team, and they can say they were trying to maintain a team dynamic / trust & confidence”, but events after demonstrated that this still wasn’t sufficient.
    If it wasn't appropriate or taken the wrong way, then obviously I'm sorry for that as it was never my intention for it to be taken in that way. It was clearly a misunderstanding.

    And yes I did complain about the comments made - but I spoke directly to the guys in question as I felt it was a better way to deal with matters.


  13. #33
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    And keeping in mind, I had no idea that the guy was offended by me in any way until I received a formal written warning about it. When I was abroad travelling with him I might add! So it made for a bit of an awkward encounter in the hotel lobby.


  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BazzaS View Post
    Hang on, then.
    Is it your position that it just wasn’t inappropriate to describe a colleague’s girlfriend as frisky, and that it couldn’t have been taken as being in a sexual context?.
    Gets the reply

    Quote Originally Posted by username1984 View Post
    If it wasn't appropriate or taken the wrong way, then obviously I'm sorry for that as it was never my intention for it to be taken in that way. It was clearly a misunderstanding.
    So, from the “if”, you still seem to be ‘fence sitting’ and feeling that because you didn’t intend it to be inappropriate, you somehow think it wasn’t. Good luck with the ET if you give them that impression.
    How about rephrasing the question “With hindsight, can you see how the statement about his girlfriend being frisky can be seen to be inappropriate”?

    Quote Originally Posted by username1984 View Post
    And yes I did complain about the comments made - but I spoke directly to the guys in question as I felt it was a better way to deal with matters.
    So, your gambit is that the complaints were treated differently due to your gender, and not that your complaints weren’t made to the company, but instead to the individuals, and his complaint was to the company.
    Were the company aware at all of your complaints to the individuals?
    If so, did you ask for the company to deal with them as complaint(s) as well as you raising it directly with the individual(s)
    If not, how can you expect the company to deal with them equally to the complaint made (to the company) against you?

    “I never made a complaint to the company for them to take action against an individual, but it is unfair that I’ve been treated differently as a result of a complaint made against me” seems to be what you are advocating, but all the company needs to do is say “different complaint procedures invoked for different classes of complaint, hence different outcome not discriminatory”

    Tl:dr is “I didn’t ask them to investigate a formal complaint against the others, and now I’m surprised the result of a formal complaint (against me) gave a different outcome! It must be discrimination”. You are grasping at straws. The different outcome is from the different processes, not different genders.


  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by username1984 View Post
    And keeping in mind, I had no idea that the guy was offended by me in any way until I received a formal written warning about it. When I was abroad travelling with him I might add! So it made for a bit of an awkward encounter in the hotel lobby.
    If I was offended by someone badly enough to make a formal complaint against them, I too would avoid them socially as far as possible, and interact with them only where my employment required it, for the minimum required to discharge my professional obligation.
    Trying to discuss it with them might just make a bad situation worse.
    They might even have been told not to discuss the issue with you, and given the option to only interact with you when necessary for matters relating to both of your employment.

    Awkward? Certainly would be, but that’d be the fault of the person who made the inappropriate comment........


  16. #36
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    Quote Originally Posted by BazzaS View Post
    Gets the reply



    So, from the “if”, you still seem to be ‘fence sitting’ and feeling that because you didn’t intend it to be inappropriate, you somehow think it wasn’t. Good luck with the ET if you give them that impression.
    How about rephrasing the question “With hindsight, can you see how the statement about his girlfriend being frisky can be seen to be inappropriate”?


    So, your gambit is that the complaints were treated differently due to your gender, and not that your complaints weren’t made to the company, but instead to the individuals, and his complaint was to the company.
    Were the company aware at all of your complaints to the individuals?
    If so, did you ask for the company to deal with them as complaint(s) as well as you raising it directly with the individual(s)
    If not, how can you expect the company to deal with them equally to the complaint made (to the company) against you?

    “I never made a complaint to the company for them to take action against an individual, but it is unfair that I’ve been treated differently as a result of a complaint made against me” seems to be what you are advocating, but all the company needs to do is say “different complaint procedures invoked for different classes of complaint, hence different outcome not discriminatory”

    Tl:dr is “I didn’t ask them to investigate a formal complaint against the others, and now I’m surprised the result of a formal complaint (against me) gave a different outcome! It must be discrimination”. You are grasping at straws. The different outcome is from the different processes, not different genders.
    I see your point that I didn't raise my complaint with the company, only the individual.


  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by username1984 View Post
    I see your point that I didn't raise my complaint with the company, only the individual.
    Which means you can’t show the different outcomes arose from discrimination (rather than the fact the company couldn’t issue written warnings for complaints they weren’t aware of!)


  18. #38
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    However I guess I have a victimisation claim. As I feel I've been sacked for complaining about discrimination.


  19. #39
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    You dont, you ain't.
    What your not getting is the commet you made was taken as inappropriate.
    Irrespective of how you said it.


  20. #40
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    Default Re: Dismissed after unfair disciplinary and discrimination grievance

    You feel you’ve been victimised, by complaining about discrimination? that you now accept wasn’t discriminatory??
    Are you saying that the company should be happy that you start making UNWARRANTED claims of discrimination?!


    You also seem to only accept grudgingly, that your comment was inappropriate, and your disciplinary warning (even if the process wasn’t perfect) entirely lawful.

    Compare and contrast:
    Person A : “I’m so sorry. I accept that (even though I meant it entirely innocently) my comment could have been perceived as inappropriate. I can see why you’ve had to warn me and I’ll make sure I don’t do it again. By the way, comments have been made to me in a similar vein. I’ve (up until now) tried to deal with this by feeding back to the individual. Now I know how seriously this is taken I will also make sure the company are aware, even though we may reach a mutual decision when I note them to the company that they don’t need action . I’m likely to be more robust than some, though the company might decide to remind all staff of their obligations.
    As part of how seriously I view this, and to show how likely I am to be more careful from now on I’m even happy to discuss my warning as part of a general debate on boundaries, and how they can easily be breached, even inadvertently, so everyone gets a reminder without any of the other members of the team feeling singled out. I understand the company has to be seen to take a firm line on this.

    Person B. “I’m only grudgingly accepting the warning because I have to. Deep down I know it is discrimination, because I’m female, even though the company could never have taken the same disciplinary action against the males, because I never actually raised it with the company. I’m giving off a “i’m being discriminated against” vibe, and because it isn’t actually discrimination I give the impression that I won’t let the matter drop, and it is disrupting the team dynamic.
    I’m giving off a “I’m only going to be trouble” vibe, reinforced when I claim victimisation when I’m dismissed.

    Based on your responses here, it seems likely you have presented to them as “Person B”
    You can claim victimisation all you like, but with less than 2 years service you can only bring that ET claim if it is based on a protected characteristic, such as gender.
    If they have “victimised” you for being ruminative and / or surly in response to your (warranted) disciplinary, or found you griping about “discrimination” when
    a) they couldn’t act equally between a formal complaint made to them and complaints they weren’t even aware of!, and
    b) their actions and your responses would see anyone of any gender dismissed

    that isn’t anything an ET would entertain. How are you going to prove the “victimisation” was based on gender if the disciplinary process wasn’t discriminatory, either?



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