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    • One other point to note, the more I read, the more I study, the more proficient I feel I am becoming in this area. Make no mistake DBCL if you are reading this, when I win in court, if I have the grounds to make any claims against you, such as breach of GDPR, I shall be doing so.
    • Yep, I read that and thought about trying to find out what the consideration and grace period is at Riverside but not sure I can. I know they say "You must tell us the specific consideration/grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is"  but I doubt they would disclose it to the public, maybe I should have asked in my CPR 31.14 letter? Yes, I think I can get rid of 5 minutes. I am also going to include a point about BPA CoP: 13.2 The reference to a consideration period in 13.1 shall not apply where a parking event takes place. I think that is Deception .... They giveth with one hand and taketh away with the other!
    • Six months of conflict have also taken a heavy economic toll.View the full article
    • the Town and Country [advertisments ] Regulations 2007 are not easy to understand. Most Council planing officials don't so it's good that you found one who knows. Although he may not have been right if the rogues have not been "controlling" in the car park for that long. The time only starts when the ANPR signs go up, not how long the area has been used as a car park.   Sadly I have checked Highview out and they have been there since at least 2014 . I have looked at the BPA Code of Practice version 8 which covers 2023 and that states Re Consideration and Grace Periods 13.3 Where a parking location is one where a limited period of parking is permitted, or where drivers contract to park for a defined period and pay for that service in advance (Pay & Display), this would be considered as a parking event and a Grace Period of at least 10 minutes must be added to the end of a parking event before you issue a PCN. It then goes on to explain a bit more further down 13.5 You must tell us the specific consideration/grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is. 13.6 Neither a consideration period or a grace period are periods of free parking and there is no requirement for you to offer an additional allowance on top of a consideration or grace period. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________So you have  now only overstayed 5 minutes maximum since BPA quote a minimum of 10 minutes. And it may be that the Riverside does have a longer period perhaps because of the size of the car park? So it becomes even more incumbent on you to remember where the extra 5 minutes could be.  Were you travelling as a family with children or a disabled person where getting them in and out of the car would take longer. Was there difficulty finding a space, or having to queue to get out of the car park . Or anything else that could account for another 5 minutes  without having to claim the difference between the ANPR times and the actual times.
    • Regarding a driver, that HAS paid for parking but input an incorrect Vehicle Registration Number.   This is an easy mistake to make, especially if a driver has access to more than one vehicle. First of all, upon receiving an NTK/PCN it is important to check that the Notice fully complies with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 before deciding how to respond of course. The general advice is NOT to appeal to the Private Parking Company as, for example, you may identify yourself as driver and in certain circumstances that could harm your defence at a later stage. However, after following a recent thread on this subject, I have come to the conclusion that, in the case of inputting an incorrect Vehicle Registration Number, which is covered by “de minimis” it may actually HARM your defence at a later stage if you have not appealed to the PPC at the first appeal stage and explained that you DID pay for parking and CAN provide proof of parking, it was just that an incorrect VRN was input in error. Now, we all know that the BPA Code of Practice are guidelines from one bunch of charlatans for another bunch of charlatans to follow, but my thoughts are that there could be problems in court if a judge decides that a motorist has not followed these guidelines and has not made an appeal at the first appeal stage, therefore attempting to resolve the situation before it reaches court. From BPA Code of Practice: Section 17:  Keying Errors B) Major Keying Errors Examples of a major keying error could include: • Motorist entered their spouse’s car registration • Motorist entered something completely unrelated to their registration • Motorist made multiple keying errors (beyond one character being entered incorrectly) • Motorist has only entered a small part of their VRM, for example the first three digits In these instances we would expect that such errors are dealt with appropriately at the first appeal stage, especially if it can be proven that the motorist has paid for the parking event or that the motorist attempted to enter their VRM or were a legitimate user of the car park (eg a hospital patient or a patron of a restaurant). It is appreciated that in issuing a PCN in these instances, the operator will have incurred charges including but not limited to the DVLA fee and other processing costs therefore we believe that it is reasonable to seek to recover some of these costs by making a modest charge to the motorist of no more than £20 for a 14-day period from when the keying error was identified before reverting to the charge amount at the point of appeal. Now, we know that the "modest charge" is unenforceable in law, however, it would be up to the individual if they wanted to pay and make the problem go away or in fact if they wanted to contest the issue in court. If the motorist DOES appeal to the PPC explaining the error and the PPC rejects the appeal and the appeal fails, the motorist can use that in his favour at court.   Defence: "I entered the wrong VRN by mistake Judge, I explained this and I also submitted proof of payment for the relevant parking period in my appeal but the PPC wouldn't accept that"   If the motorist DOES NOT appeal to the PPC in the first instance the judge may well use that as a reason to dismiss the case in the claimant's favour because they may decide that they had the opportunity to resolve the matter at a much earlier stage in the proceedings. It is my humble opinion that a motorist, having paid and having proof of payment but entering the wrong VRN, should make an appeal at the first appeal stage in order to prevent problems at a later stage. In this instance, I think there is nothing to be gained by concealing the identity of the driver, especially if at a later stage, perhaps in court, it is said: “I (the driver) entered the wrong VRN.” Whether you agree or not, it is up to the individual to decide …. but worth thinking about. Any feedback, especially if you can prove to the contrary, gratefully received.
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dondada,

 

just quoting cases is like taking someone to a law library and saying "look at all the books!"

 

What is helpful is highlighting the specific circumstances of the ruling, the specific point of law, and in what way they are like the posters case. If they posters case does not rely on the same point of law, then they are not useful cases.

 

G4S versus Powell probably does not apply here, because it concerned a case of disability. Illness is not disability except in very specific circumstances.

 

 

The OP said he had stroke about 6 months ago.The govt guidelines list stroke as long term impairment deemed a disability

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/equality-act-guidance

 

It is on page 8 G4S v Powell is clearly applicable to his case

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The OP said he had stroke about 6 months agoThe govt guidelines list stroke as long term impairment deemed a disability

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/equality-act-guidance

 

 

It is on page 8 G4S v Powell is clearly applicable to his case

 

I am afraid your reading comprehension is flawed. That page says disability CAN arise from a stroke, not that it DOES ALWAYS. Indeed I know a large number of people who have made a full recovery from a stroke and gone on to live very active and fulfilling lives. I hope this also happens for the OP.

 

So unless OP can give is a fuller view on the condition and if it meets the legal definition of disability, I am afraid further case law is of no relevance.

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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By the way, I thought other readers might like a summary of the case referred o

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/the-10-most-important-employment-law-cases-in-2016/

 

6. Pay protection can be a reasonable adjustment

 

G4S Cash Solutions (UK) Ltd v Powell (EAT)

 

What happens to the pay of a disabled employee who is moved to a new role because he or she is unable to continue in an old role?

 

In Powell, a maintenance engineer developed back problems and retained his existing terms and conditions, but moved to the lesser role of “key runner”.

 

However, a dispute arose after his employer said that it would only keep the role, which it said was designed to be temporary, if he agreed to a reduction in pay.

 

In the engineer’s subsequent disability discrimination claim, the EAT accepted that, while not an “everyday event”, there is no reason why pay protection cannot be a reasonable adjustment as part of a package of measures to get an employee back to work.“

 

You will see from the wording that pay protection is seen, in some cases, as a reasonable adjustment to help an employee back to work, but it is by no means suggested it applies in every case, or is necessary in every case. More explicitly “However, it also said that the question of whether it was reasonable for that particular employer was separate and should be considered on a case-by-case basis” (http://dixcartlegal.com/articles/employment/disability-reasonable-adjustments-can-include-protecting-pay)

 

So it would be nothing short of reckless to encourage people, even those with a clearly evidenced disability, to rely on this case law.

 

Dondada, I think if you are going to ask Sangie to quote laws to support their advice, your own evidence needs to be of a much higher quality too. Otherwise people will be confused and misguided. This should, to my mind, be a place for help and support, not debating club. Usually I’ve got better things to do than hunt down and refute inappropriate case law, but when I have time, I’ll keep doing it, so people are well informed.

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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On the Equality Act note, I also have type 1 diabetes that was declared to my employer 21 years ago when I was appointed but they have never asked about reasonable adjustments.

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You will see from the wording that pay protection is seen, in some cases, as a reasonable adjustment to help an employee back to work, but it is by no means suggested it applies in every case, or is necessary in every case. More explicitly “However, it also said that the question of whether it was reasonable for that particular employer was separate and should be considered on a case-by-case basis” (http://dixcartlegal.com/articles/employment/disability-reasonable-adjustments-can-include-protecting-pay)

 

.

 

 

Thank you for bringing this out as it illustrates my point "Case by case basis", I take that to mean it is fact sensitive.The OP (and others) in similar circumstances are now aware that Pay Protection COULD be a reasonable adjustment.Since they alone know the facts of their cases, they would then read the case law and see if it applies to their own case.

 

 

 

It is very annoying when people insult the intelligence of others because they asked a simple question.The OP is intelligent enough to research any Case Law and decide if it applies to him.

 

Let him do so, please

Edited by Andyorch
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no such requirement 21 years ago and the EA didnt exist either and they arent expected to be clairvoyant.

 

Pick your battles carefully.

 

 

On the Equality Act note, I also have type 1 diabetes that was declared to my employer 21 years ago when I was appointed but they have never asked about reasonable adjustments.
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In reply to ericsbrother and the point he made - wouldn't any employer, irrelevant of the length of time in charge of an employee, be required to be cognisant of any legislative changes and be required to implement such according to such members of the affected workforce?

 

Dondada has inspired me to continue my claim - thank you.

 

Going back to my recent post - where can I learn about representing myself should this end up at an EAT?

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Have you attended an ET or EAT? I know for an ET you can attend a local one, not sure about second tier hearings.

 

Edit: As far as I can see you haven't confirmed whether this is an employment tribunal or an employment appeal tribunal.

 

 

HB

Edited by honeybee13

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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In reply to ericsbrother and the point he made - wouldn't any employer, irrelevant of the length of time in charge of an employee, be required to be cognisant of any legislative changes and be required to implement such according to such members of the affected workforce?

 

 

In 21 years, have you ever needed an adjustment to accomodate your diabetes? I have MS but don't really need them to do anything abiout it.... managing my condition is currently down to me!

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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so when did you raise this with them as an issue for consideration, the day after the new laws came in?

 

they will be aware of the laws but not aware that you may have diabetes because it is none of their business unless you request some consideration for a disability as a result of this condition.

 

You cant bring up things after you have left and then say that they werent considered so it is now unfair and you want some recompense.

 

Can you show an example of where your diabetes was a factor in some disciplinary matter? If not you would be wise to move on to the next point

 

As someone who retired early because of health grounds I can say that it is an absolute devil to get anywhere by expecting anyone to give a stuff about your condition.

 

I too have MS but one OH doctors report said that I shouldnt get an enhanced pension because they may find a cure for it before my normal retirement date and as for a missing leg, the prosthetics are so good these days they are better than real ones. well if that is true why wasnt Oscar Pistorius a word famous roofer rather than runner?

 

I have taken organisations to court for disability discrimination and won one and lost one.

 

You will find that because of the nature of your claim that it may well take 3 years to get to then end of the matter.

 

Do you want to spend the time doing that rather than something else.

As said, choose your battle carefully. A small victory over procedural matters is better than a big disappointment.

 

 

In reply to ericsbrother and the point he made - wouldn't any employer, irrelevant of the length of time in charge of an employee, be required to be cognisant of any legislative changes and be required to implement such according to such members of the affected workforce?

 

Dondada has inspired me to continue my claim - thank you.

 

Going back to my recent post - where can I learn about representing myself should this end up at an EAT?

Edited by honeybee13
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In reply to ericsbrother and the point he made - wouldn't any employer, irrelevant of the length of time in charge of an employee, be required to be cognisant of any legislative changes and be required to implement such according to such members of the affected workforce?

 

Dondada has inspired me to continue my claim - thank you.

 

Going back to my recent post - where can I learn about representing myself should this end up at an EAT?

 

Hi Andyasw,

 

Yes the Equality Act wasn't in place at the time you were employed However, the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 was in place when you were employed

Yes, there was a duty to make adjustment.However, there is a legal principle called Laches, you waited too long

 

You have a strong case in the Deduction/Pay Protection Claim.Pay Protection is an exception.Your employer ignored the Doctor's advice, that means you qualified for the exception

 

You need to first ask your employer for their reasons.The Tribunal would not be too happy if you didn't seek to resolve the issue.

 

Finally, you need to do a lot of research! G4S is a relevant case in your situation.But you need to also read cases where the Claimant lost.You need both cases to be able to distinguish your case

 

The other side would try and prove to the Judge that your case is similar to the one that lost.You need to know that case in order to show to the Judge the difference (the legal term is called "Distinguish") .Feel free to ask any question

 

Wish you all the best

Edited by dx100uk
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Thank you Dondada but where can I find such cases to read up on? Is there any particular website you would recommend?

 

The website I like using is https://www.employmentcasesupdate.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed31608

 

https://www.employmentcasesupdate.co.uk/site.aspx?i=li0&p=4&s=pay%20protection

 

But you might like other websites.Just read as many case laws so you can distinguish your case

 

Wish you all the best .keep us updated

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My case against my employer is now in the early conciliation process with ACAS.

 

 

Hopefully they will decide it's not worth the risk of expense of defending an ET and make an offer :) Fingers crossed!

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Sadly not - ACAS have been in touch with my employer who is arguing that a return to work plan required planning as their opinion was that I could not return to full time working and that I agreed to a phased return and this is also what my GP had put on the fit note.

 

Seems like I haven't a case after all despite their sickness policy stating that if an employee believes they're fit to work but management do not then this is classed as medical suspension.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Since my last post I am now in receipt of an ACAS certificate and am therefore able to apply to an ET for a hearing.

I have consulted with employment lawyers who say I have a case for unauthorised deductions as a person covered under the Equality Act and that I should also claim for injury to feelingsfor the stress, anxiety and upset my employer has caused me during a period when I required support not punishment.

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Then I would take their steer and let them get on with it :)

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Since my last post I am now in receipt of an ACAS certificate and am therefore able to apply to an ET for a hearing.

I have consulted with employment lawyers who say I have a case for unauthorised deductions as a person covered under the Equality Act and that I should also claim for injury to feelingsfor the stress, anxiety and upset my employer has caused me during a period when I required support not punishment.

 

 

 

Well done to you:high5:

 

You listened to your gut and ignored the nay-sayers in your mind

 

Let the lawyers handle it from here

 

They are professionals and that would take the stress off you

 

I'm really pleased for you

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