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  1. #121

    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    ok lets look at post 8 scan

    sheet 3 shows up 2 photos but you've blanked out the timings.

    sheet 4 however days:..

    entry 09:57:31
    exit 11:12:46
    duration 75mins.


    ….
    so...

    there is a minimum of 10mins grace [no max]

    and what time did you pay for [just 1 hrd with the option to have paid for a longer period]
    or is that ALL you can pay/stay for.

    if these are true or not
    look at the original granted planning permission give by the relevant council on their website planning debt spot.

    I would expect that they stipulated a minimum of 3hrs FREE parking or such like and some little tyke [urm..] has decided to change these rules without consent…

    not sure if your done all this but it needs resolving eitherway.

    I would argue that 15mins to read the signs etc is quite reasonable and add in that the time to exit from the space too to the ANPR exit, there were lots of card in the queue to get out wasn't there...
    they'd have to produce footage to disprove this...

    understanding where im coming from......

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  2. #122
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    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    understand completely, problem is, Keeper genuinely doesn't know who was driving the car that day! Me neither. It was two days before an epic journey to NZ, the house was teeming with bodies bidding farewells! :-0


  3. #123
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    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    Have tried many times to view planning consent online but can't find it anywhere. I'm not great at this can you tell????

    But while searching saw this!

    https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/...eople-14790956


  4. #124

    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    god what muppets that newspaper are.
    its not a fine
    its not a penalty charge notice.

    …………

    its matters not who was driving forget that
    they are suing the registered keeper

    whats the max stay there 1hrs?

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  5. #125
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    Of course. Good point!

    Max stay is Two hours. Although signs on the walls are different to what's on the machine itself. I took photos so will dig those out.

    Also found a similar 'case' on another forum, also with hxcpm, which has images of the 'contract'between O&C Property Management and HXCPM. I'm not entirely sure if O&C own the land or just 'manage' it.

    Haven't looked at it properly. My brain hurts. Will resume tomorrow.

    Thanks DX don't know where we'd be without you all!!


  6. #126

    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    point to the thread you elude to please

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  7. #127

    Default Re:  HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    phone the council planning dept then and if they cnat find it ask for their email so you can request anyhting they have on that particular site, including who OWNS it. O&C will be agaents and so there may be no chain of authority, something to ask of HXCPM (if you havent done a CPR 31.14 already).
    Quote Originally Posted by Chimichanga View Post
    Have tried many times to view planning consent online but can't find it anywhere. I'm not great at this can you tell????

    But while searching saw this!

    https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/...eople-14790956



  8. #128
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    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    Hi DX,
    Contract pics as per above:
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/i5sekn8mu...d6vNHH9aa?dl=0

    Thread to which it relates:
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com...ge=2#topofpage
    About to look at it properly now....

    Hi EB,

    CPR request was done a few months back, obviously got nothing back.
    Called council, they're utterly useless....can't be put through to speak to planning waiting for a call back. Have emailed requesting any and all planning docs relating to the site....waiting for response.

    Have added in following to WS:

    10. Without any exact details regarding the alleged overstay, the Defendant can only assume that 1 hour of parking was paid for and the overstay amounted to 15 minutes. Allowing for the minimum grace period of 10 minutes to read the signage, the alleged overstay equates to 5 minutes. There can be any number of reasons which cause a delay in exiting a car park, cars queuing, time to get in the car and as such is wholly unreasonable to impose such an inflated penalty on the driver in these circumstances.

    11. There is a distinct lack of signage upon entry to the Car Park. The signage itself cannot be read from a seated position in the car. The Defendant returned to the car park and took photographs of the site and machine. The sign on the machine itself is completely different to the signs displayed in the car park and mention no penalty charges. Exhibit XXX

    thanks!!


  9. #129

    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    There is a min but no max..you need to revise 10
    Its not a 5 mins O/S

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  10. #130
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    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    done:
    10. Without any exact details regarding the alleged overstay, the Defendant can only assume that 1 hour of parking was paid for and the alleged overstay amounted to 15 minutes. Allowing for the minimum grace period of 10 minutes to read the signage, it is not unreasonable to take up to 15 minutes grace period to consider the parking terms since there is no maximum limit and also considering that there can be any number of reasons which could cause a delay in exiting a car park, cars queuing, time to get in the car etc. As such it is wholly unfair to impose such an inflated penalty on the driver in these circumstances.


  11. #131

    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    dont waffle, and dont assume. You state the driver paid for 1 hour and the overstay is "de minimis" considering the requirement for a minimum grace period. But this isnt your main point so dont get buried by it

    Dont say it is unfair, inflated etc, you are using a subjective argument that has never existed. If a plumber tells you there is a 50 call out charge then that is fixed regardless of what he does or how long he is there.
    Now as they havent responded to the request for documents you can hit them with that by saying the defendnat does not believe they ahve the necessary permissions because they have failed to produce them. That will make the judge more interested in looking at what they have supplied and when so if they bring along a redacted copy on the day they will get ripped into shreds.


    Lastly, they are not PENALTY charges, use the wrong terminology and you will look stupid and the rest of your evidenc suspect.



    Now, if the sigange says somehting like no parking 100 if you do the that is an unlawful penalty charge because ther is no genune offer to park and thus no contract to consider. Waht they are claiming is monety due under a contract or for a breach of contract so which is it?



    If it isnt clear in either the sigange or their correspondence then you point out it has to be stated as one or the other, cant be either by default and the wording on the sigange will determine what it is so try and get them to expalin why the claim doesnt actually give a proper cause for action against you as the defendant ( same goes with keeper liability under POFA) You get more bites of the cherry than they do so use that advantage

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  12. #132

    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    AND WHERE ARE THESE PICTURES, we are still waiting to see them. Have you doen a plan of the car park to go with your piccies so anyoe can see why it wasnt possible to read them or even be aware of them at the time or whatever you want to stress with this.


  13. #133
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    Thanks EB
    I am waiting for my tech savvy husband to get me the pictures which are no longer on my phone but on an external hard drive.....I will get them up ASAP. In the meantime you can see the car park signs here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=119328

    Incidentally, I drove past the car park recently and saw that they now have new signs up by the machine. Huge big white one.

    Have received the WS from 'Claimant' today so it seems they will be pushing ahead.

    Will uploadicon WS from them which also includes their car park plan.

    Car park pictures:

    Court fee has been paid. GRRRRR!

    Attached Files Attached Files

  14. #134

    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    then photograph then as it is proof that they know their signage was garbage or they would have changed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chimichanga View Post
    Thanks EB
    I am waiting for my tech savvy husband to get me the pictures which are no longer on my phone but on an external hard drive.....I will get them up ASAP. In the meantime you can see the car park signs here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=119328

    Incidentally, I drove past the car park recently and saw that they now have new signs up by the machine. Huge big white one.

    Have received the WS from 'Claimant' today so it seems they will be pushing ahead.

    Will uploadicon WS from them which also includes their car park plan.

    Car park pictures:

    Court fee has been paid. GRRRRR!



  15. #135

    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    green signs different content to yellow signs. On the picture to the entrance theyre are signs on the low wall that we need to be able to read as they differ to the one you have taken in close up. Where the blus sign says pay and display both sides.
    Now for my money the sigange is inadequate as the bit that is supposedly the contract is much smaller print than the offer of parking and thsi has been the subject of quite a few defeats for parking co's
    Also it say failing to comply will result in chareg beig applied etc, but it doesnt make it clear what part that refers to, just the paym,ent of the 50p or 1 or all of the illegible small print as well?
    NOTHING about overstaying though so you cnat be charged for that. Therefore no breach of contract as there isnt such a contractual term. therefor the most they can ask for is a quid for the overstay and event hat isnt a certainty.

    Stupid people


  16. #136
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    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    Yes EB, going back to take pictures of new signage and will take a close up of the sign you mention also.


  17. #137
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    Ok so current pictures:

    Looks like car park is now being managed by UKCPM?
    All signs have changed. None of the old signs remain.

    Is this something I can still use in the WS if the car park is indeed now managed by a different company?

    Thanks

    Witness Statement from HXCPM:

    Attached Files Attached Files

  18. #138

    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    A common theme within that WS is their reference to "the defendant" as though they were the driver. No mention of POFA, being the mechanism under which they can hold the Keeper liable - only the Elliott v Loake criminal case (which is nonsense). Also, in p.24, quoting the signage in respect of additional charges - "...for which the driver will be liable..." - again, they're pursuing the Keeper. Use their own lazy wording and omissions against them and remind them that you're the Keeper, yet nowhere have they properly established the liability of the Keeper. I haven't read the full thread, so maybe they've already messed up on POFA so can't go there.

    I'm sure EB will have a more succinct summary when he gets a chance to look in. It's a really weak WS though.


  19. #139
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    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    Thanks Shamrocker. we're drafting a more succinct WS and trying to address their points one by one. Fast losing the will to live!


  20. #140

    Default Re: HXCPM/Gladstones claimform ANPR PCN - Overstay Lawson Road Brighouse HD6 1NY

    Elliott V Loake needs putting to bed, as it is criminal and there is NO duty or compulsion to name a driver in a Civil case it cannot apply, so pionts 7, 8, and 9 on their WS are rubbish.


    Neither can the 60 unicorn food tax be charged to the Keeper only the drive, so the Reasonable charge of 60 should be knocked off their claim.


    I'm sure EB will be suitablt acerbic.

    The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!
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