hi all, just some quick advice needed if poss,

got a pcn before xmas code 01 parking in a CPZ during prescribed hours,

I was parked on a single yellow no kerb markings, and no sign on the yellow lines stating prescribed times,

was picking up my elderly father who was further down the road

I had to have a quick search for him as he was carrying stuff, , (was parked for about 10 mins in all)

the place I parked was a bus lane but it was out of the bus lane hours, 4pm till 7 pm

I was parked in the red circled area, fig 1

The enforcement officer observed me from 19:30 to 19:30 hours (not even a minute)

I carried out an informal appeal after looking on the council website and the rules and found this statement, saying I had to have a little search for my father, fig 2

It came back rejected saying that “a vehicle is not allowed to park on a yellow line when restrictions are in force other than for the purpose of loading or unloading as permitted by legislation, or for allowing passengers to board or alight, in which case the driver should not leave the vehicle,

notes made by the civil enforcement officer show that there were no suggestion of either of these actions taking place at the time of the contravention,

(bearing in mind the ticket says I was observed from 19:30 to 19:30 not even a minute),

your vehicle was parked in contravention of a waiting restriction,,

the restrictions were clearly shown in accordance with traffic management act 2004 legislation,

They also included this picture of a sign that belongs to the yellow line further down the road to the left, beyond the crossing in the picture, fig 3

placement of the sign is neither here nor there as some half a mile down the road is the main CPZ sign with the prescribed hours, 8am – 8pm mon sat, which means the little yellow line automatically falls within the main cpz hours from what I have discovered,

Now I went and looked at this sign which Is placed beyond a bus stop in the middle of the pavement,

around half a mile from where my ticket was issued as you can just see it poking out,

I’m usually pretty good at reading signs and obeying the rules (or so i thought ) fig 4

now this sign is obscured by the bus stop and if you get behind a bus its blocked totally, add it being dark is not a good mix

rest of pics

So the question is,

do I go to the next appeal with this or do I just stump up the £65 in case I lose the next one and its £130,

they call the first one that was rejected an informal appeal,

now because I didn’t state all this about the main cpz sign and the other sign

does that mean they will look badly at it ??

informal makes you think its summit cosy when in fact it’s a propa bone fide appeal,

havering.pdf

Ok, you're in a CPZ during restricted times, but the boarding exemption applies and you were absent from your car because you were assisting your elederly father + luggage. The CEO's obs time is only 1 min, insufficient for him to ascertain whether you were in contravention

Further to that is the poorly sited single CPZ entry sign partially hidden by the bus stop. So far, so good.

However you say you admitted in your informal reps that you went searching for him and were there 10 mins. Is that right?

i didnt say to them i went searching,

i just i had to help him with shopping,

didnt give a time i was absent either to them

i said 10 mins on here in case that has a bearing,

if the ceo did make notes and stood around for say 5 mins,

not sure what they do,

but he went up to the other sign which is maybe a minute walk to get the pic of the sign

also a work friend is a councilor in havering and he did suggest they might say if you're in doubt about the yellow line you shouldn't have parked there then ??

say if he stood there made a note of the time and my reg

then trotted down to the sign got the picture

then came back and started issuing the ticket,

that could take 10 mins ????

sorry have written so much stuff tonight i was bound to make an error

Essentially you now have to play double or quits. The council is unlikely to allow your reps to the NTO, (so it'would now be the full penalty £130 ) but you can then appeal to adjudication (at no additional cost) If you win you owe nothing, if you lose you would owe the full penalty.

In theory with the boarding exemption and poor signage, you should win but adjudication can be a lottery and nothings guaranteed.

Your choice, I'm afraid.

nightmare eh, £65 for an easy life or take my chance, tough call really, cause you know they will have an answer already

have you known of tickets getting over turned for lesser things ?

I've had 6 appeals all allowed at adjudication, 3 where the council pulled out at the last minute (DNC -did not contest), 2 which were strong cases and 1 where the adjudicator was very agressive (clearly did not like my arguements) and would not give his decision at the time and told me I would be notified by post so I assumed I'd lost, but surprisingly he decided to allow it.

i know i shouldnt ask but i would value your personal opinion if i should carry on, i know its hard from reading on pc and not being there, £65 hurts but £130 will hurt more lol

like my mate threw at me with the if you wern't sure why did you park there ? which i cant help thinking is a sensible question really

the trouble is if i pay it i'm still going to raise a complaint about the issue of the sign being obscured by the bus stop witht havering council,

You have to decide whether or not to "roll the dice". Certainly £65 is better than £130, but then, £0 beats them both.

Adjudicators can be a bit of a lottery, but if you feel that you have a good argument (and I think you do), then only you can really decide if you want to pay or play

the trouble is if i pay it i'm still going to raise a complaint about the issue of the sign being obscured by the bus stop witht havering council,

If you pay it first, the council will say that you've admitted the 'offence' and won't give a flying f(ig) about your complaint. Sad but true I'm afraid.

i paid it, a friend of mine had murders with havering over a bus lane ticket where they couldnt see the video, clampers round the lot , cost em over 600 in the end,

not the same issue so not relevant to your case.

Sometimes it is wise to put in a soft appeal and if they reject then pay up but at least you would have had one bite of the cherry.

i had several similar tickets when loading and got them all cancelled.

Lost one at adjudication and the adjudicator and I had an argument over the mathematics of how clocks work and the relevance of using a separate recording system to determine the length of a stay in a car park.

His maths were wrong

but i had clealy upset him by telling him this

so appeal rejected because the council can run a timing system that is 11 minutes out " for the convenience of the public"

You should of appealed

you had a 99% chance of winning,

the officer had no grounds to issue the ticket with no observation period as they had no time to rule out any exemption.

Councils used to give 5 mins but most London councils have cut this down to 2mins or even zero as in this case because they can issue far more PCNs as there is less chance of the driver returning.

The evidence against the driver is so weak a robust appeal will never fail

but Councils rely on the fact most people pay up so the evidence or lack of it is never challenged.

There is no requirement to remain in the car if boarding is taking place they are just telling porkies to get you to pay up.

is there any worth in raising a complaint with the council through there complaints procedure,

its still bugging me,

i got scared about taking it further due to horror stories,