Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    That's the issue, you have.
    Il just pick one point on this.

    You kept arguing that your situation comes under wrongful dismissal (which cannot be the case as you said you were being paid in lieu) and not unfair dismissal ( which you cant as you agreed to a probationary period with the company)

    Tho was pointed out several times in one form or another by sangie.
    as far as this post goes, I'm done


  2. #42
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Couldn't remember what my old user name was had not been on for over 7 years.
    During my last time on here you were one of those that provided me with a lot of help and support and it went a long way to resolving various issues.

    What's sad about all of this is (and it's only become deal made by others) is the perception I am not "hearing" the advice, as that's far from the truth and I have not challenged any of it given.

    All I have looked to do is get as much of it as I can - hence why I have been researching different avenues

    SgtBush yes you did tell me but that doesn't mean that she is any good at it or everything she says has to be taken as gospel.

    That's why it pays to get other opinions. (remember Acas & CAB have said things as well)
    Are you saying then that posters have no right to ask advice after one person has answered?

    No my case has nothing to do with 6 items listed and I am not investigating that - I am looking at it from a Breach of Contract perspective as my employer did not follow Due Process and allow for me to have prior notice,time to prepare and have representation

    Two things that both ACAS,CAB and the two firms that contacted me all have said I should have had
    http://www.firstpracticemanagement.c...onary-periods/

    As for quoting this is one of the reasons I have come back on here - I can find lots of quotes that contradict each other.


  3. #43
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    That Is for guidance only and is not statute.
    It says everywhere"should" not "will"

    It even states at the bottom that its for guidance only


  4. #44
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    And this is the reason why people like me ask the questions we ask - we do not know what any of this means or what the implications are.
    If we did we would not be on here would we?

    Please try remembering that - people ask for help


  5. #45
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sangie595 View Post
    Just for information....now i am being aggressive....i am beginning to think that i understand why your employers got shut of you. A lucky escape for them, i suspect.
    I have real concerns for this site now. Its becoming a group of a few people who post things like this. Its such a real shame. I will vote with my feet and leave you guys to it. Ellen and DX I thank you for your valuable help, DX you have been funny too. I'm out.


  6. #46
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    I went through a similar situation a few months ago.

    The advice you are being given here, especially about the wrong dismissal, is 100% correct.

    I don't understand why you have solicitors and ACAS telling you that you have a good case for wrong dismissal, when you clearly don't.

    It's natural to feel the way you do about this situation and to want justice, especially when you've done nothing wrong. It's an employers world, they can do what they want in your first two years with them as long as they following procedure.

    You've been there less than 3 months, write it off as a bad experience and move on.
    You probably don't want to hear the latter advice and nor did I when I lost my job.

    It was the advice Sangie gave me and it was the best advice out of all everything everyone ever said to me during that horrible time. Six months later I've achieved my career goals, something I would have never been able to do if I was still in my old job.

    Sangie (and some others) are straight speaking and it does come across as aggressive.
    I had a similar situation whereby I sought advice from elsewhere and Sangie wasn't too happy.

    I followed the other advice and found some peace through it.
    It wasn't anything legal, I simply asked for further information regarding my dismissal via a Subject access requesticon.

    It was a huge risk to take as I risked further damaging my reputation but it didn't.
    The company relaxed in their attitude towards me as further information came to light in my favour.

    BUT legally nothing changed, their records show that I was dismissed and I will still never be able to work for that company again. I didn't look to take any further action, it wasn't worth my time or effort.

    Good luck for your future.


  7. #47
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Thank you Beatrixx and sometimes nothing is better than getting first hand experience.
    Really pleased for you that you achieved your career goals and just one post like yours does make asking the question worth while.

    As an aside and only found out this morning, due to manning issues and unexpected orders two new production starters being employed middle of next week.
    Before Christmas the directors were adamant that even with a bare bones workforce there would be no more recruitment.

    Makes you wonder doesn't it?


  8. #48
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    You're very welcome.

    Again my situation was similar. They recruited in another area after my dismissal and announced they would not be replacing me as they wanted to focus in that other area. That's a strategic decision that's not made on a whim. My paranoia wasn't paranoia, they were trying to get me to leave. I've since found out I was recruited to meet some key objectives over a 6 month period, when I met them I was no longer needed. Cheaper than getting a contractor in and cheaper than redundancy.

    Be very careful and be wary of your actions. Be the better person, no matter how hard this eats away at you. In the end they're the ones who will end up looking like idiots, not you


  9. #49
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Good advice and you are right I am the better person - it's just sad that they couldn't be honest about it all
    I would have accepted that as it would have been best for the business

    As it was I did everything they asked me to without any support,made improvements,gave them over 100 ideas where they could improve their business and potentially through contacts secured a large long term contract with one of my former employers (one of the largest companies in the world)

    All in less than 3 months,not hard to see why I am aggrieved and shocked by the termination is it?


  10. #50
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Quote Originally Posted by Curly109 View Post

    All in less than 3 months,not hard to see why I am aggrieved and shocked by the termination is it?
    You have every right to be aggrieved!! You have every right to want to seek answers. But unfortunately you're not going to get then and there is nothing legal you can do - doesn't hurt trying though, if I had found a way I would have totally taken my lot to court. I think you needed more than legal advice.

    Take care and I'm wishing you all the very best. I'm sure you will find something better soon.


  11. #51
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    As an old wise head once told me, in employment matters, as with many other areas of law, you can be completely right, treated appallingly and lose your job, but very often there is nothing that you can do about it

    This is true now more than ever, as in the interests of the smooth running of business, and in the current economic climate, employers have more latitude than ever, and the support of Government in reducing barriers to run their business how they see fit. This has created an erosion of rights for employees and of responsibilities for employers

    In your case, whilst I understand fully the feelings that you have, I do also see that good advice (even though not favourable to you) was given at an early stage. You have no claim for Unfair Dismissal as you have insufficient service to bring such an action, unless the dismissal was for a protected characteristic, which it clearly is not. The employer could have dismissed you for wearing odd socks, and ridiculous as that would be, you still would have no case due to length of service You could, in theory, lodge a case for Wrongful Dismissal - effectively a breach of contract for not following policy and procedure, or meeting clauses required by your contract, however even if successful, any damages would be limited to actual loss caused by the breach - ie the right to any notice afforded by your dismissal. As the employer has mitigated that loss in paying all outstanding wages plus salary for the period of notice, then such a case would never succeed let alone see a Court hearing. Thus the advice from any qualified person would be to put it down to experience and move on. Whilst the circumstances 'may' give you some leeway to also agree a reference with the employer (and it is always worth asking), this is not a given, nor is it actionable unless in future the employer provided malicious or false statement to a prospective employer about the circumstances of you leaving or your conduct whilst employed

    I cannot understand why a solicitor would indicate a willingness to take on a case unless other potential 'damages' were at stake, however since you have not mentioned other losses incurred we must assume that there are none. ACAS, whilst they form the framework of many areas of employment law and good practice, are underfunded and overworked, and although their advice was once rock solid, many of their call centre advisors will give you the basics from a flow chart or computer lookup, but sadly the quality of advice is little more than any unqualified person could glean from the internet. CAB is similarly under-resourced and again, whilst they may have somebody who can look up the theory on their systems I have yet to find a qualified employment lawyer giving real world advice. It is indeed true that you could be dealing with anybody on an internet forum, and we would always advise that there is no substitute for qualified legal advice, ie a solicitor specialising in the field, but if one is advising that you have a case, then just make sure that you know the potential costs, likelihood of success, and outcomes - especially if things do not proceed to a trial, or should something else go awry. You could potentially pay a lot up front in terms of time and letters, only to find that you get nothing in return. Forums such as this provide a mere sounding board to research a potential case or just to vent anger. Nothing wrong with that, but please do not throw advice freely given back in peoples' faces or question their knowledge, wisdom or experience. Many of us DO have extensive experience from both employer, employee or trade union perspectives - and indeed legal qualifications and very few will accept that experience to be questioned or disagreed with unless backed by sound case law, statute or counter-argument. Sangie, although there is no need to fight battles on their behalf, does have extensive experiencing in fighting cases on behalf of employees, and is sound, whether positive or negative in a particular case. Sometimes it really is most appropriate to simply move on, however hard that is.

    The advice is always there to take or leave as you see fit. We can only ever give an opinion based on what you are telling us, and by the very nature of the forum, and the emotional nature of such matters there is often a need to be forthright and even blunt on occasions. There is nothing personal or unsympathetic in this unless it is made so by name-calling - it just ensures that the relevant points are made and reinforced when people are often unwilling to hear what they are being told. We cannot always put an arm around somebody and assure them that everything will be OK

    Any advice given is done so on the assumption that recipients will also take professional advice where appropriate.

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  12. #52
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Thank you for taking the trouble to write a great post and for putting it in a way that can be understood.

    Looking at this forum from this side of the fence.

    As others have mentioned when people come here they are in a situation where they need help and I would imagine not in a position where they can pay for it.

    Sometimes they need just that arm around the shoulder to convince them they are doing the right thing.
    This is where this forum is so great and the information given so important.

    Unfortunately though there are also people on it like Disgruntled who only provide sarcastic, pointless comments that offer nothing other than to cause tension.
    On some sites that doesn't matter, but on sites with topics that affect peoples lives it does and it's important to know that information provided is worth considering.

    When someone posts they do not know if the respondent has any background, is an expert or is giving them the correct information.
    So the sensible thing to do is to see if others say the same.

    This is not always foolproof though as from experience of moderating a forum I know that anyone can now be "Walter Mitty" .cut & paste information and come across as very knowledgeable.Topics also fall into trouble when others feel quick to defend respondents they (forum) know and miss what the other person is actually saying.

    This is counter productive then as the purpose of the OP is lost in a melee of defence & offence.
    Not good for both parties, but also not good for the forum and for what it tries to achieve.
    The knock on is that posters in need of help are potentially wary of posting for fear of being ridiculed or being drawn into a battle of ego's by those vying to be forum top dog (it does go on).

    I have always thought this forum would benefit from members having the option to specify their profession beneath their name,this may be classed as a form of advertising but no more than them sending private messages or adding their background into a post.
    This would be very useful to anyone trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff and the friction in topics such as this could have been avoided.

    I hope that Sangie posts again as she obviously is well regarded and her information invaluable,
    but perhaps as others have pointed out,
    there is an issue with her attitude that also needs to addressed.

    Not all posters will ever be the same but Beatrixx, Sidewinder & Unclebulgaria are good examples of how it should be done and they have helped me personally form a decision on what to do next.

    I appreciate all the poster support, help and advice that has been given and hope that you have success eliminating the posters on here who offer nothing to this forum.

    As said before this is my second stint on here and I had forgotten what a great site it really is.


  13. #53
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    I totally understand your comments and have seen all of the behaviours you describe. But CAGicon and other forums only really mirror real life. If you went into a room with 10 people at random to discuss a particular problem, you would see exactly the same as on this thread.

    You would have a couple of authoritative people who were sure about their knowledge, explain the issues and rights. You would have a couple of others challenge them and offer a different opinion. There would be four people who had no particular view trying to be helpful and a couple of people who were not helpful at all. So not really different to any type of online forum.

    Now you might say that you would start asking for qualifications and experience. You would have no right to such information and they might not provide it. This might be due to their employers contract terms, regulatory compliance, conflicts of interest etc. For example, people who work in Insurance are not really allowed to offer Insurance advice online on forums. They can offer general information to help people, but if they started to get into actually helping specifically with a case in might land them in hot water. The same goes for Civil Servants who deal with say Local Government or Benefits, who are not really allowed to offer specific advice online or in public outside of their official job role.

    This is why internet forums are anonymous so people can share knowledge and experience, without it causing problems with their employment. It can be a small world out there and some people who post to forums or read them, might see some of the OP's threads before them on their in trays at work. It does happen, as I know someone who replied to an Insurance issue and then back in work found out that the Insurance company they worked for were dealing with the OP's claim. It then became clear that the information on the thread was not 100% accurate and there was much more to the story.


  14. #54
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    I had a friend in a similar position as you but he was head hunted by the government of a small country.
    Came up with some brilliant ideas to grow their economy, boost tourism, reduce waste, save energy etc and they said thank you and goodbye.

    He wasnt expecting to be in the post for all eternity but was originaly employed on a years contract and was given the heave ho after about 2 months and since the govt made it own laws up he couldnt do a thing about it.

    The advice you have been given has been given in all honesty and being a public forum you will get a range of differing opinions and qualifications for those giving it. You should be able to filter this rather than question peiople's qualifications or expertise.
    If you want "professional" advice you go and pay for it and then you may well ahve a cause for complaint if that advice is wrong.

    You have received smypathy for your plight but that is tempered with the warning that there is neff all you can do about the situation.
    What more do you want?

    No-one can make the employer revisit their action and give you your job back.
    yes it hurts to be make to feel like you ahve been used or unappreciated but as said,

    if they cnat see the good in what you have to offer you are better off out of it now rather tha in a years time whern you have actually damaged your career prospects by staying with a dinosaur co anyway.

    Move on.


  15. #55
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Information follow up.
    Took the advice given by the wise on here, just let the situation go and put it down as a bad experience.

    Ex-employer finally sent a letter informing me that the probation was terminated due to
    "I had not made any noticeable production line efficiency improvements in the two months I was there and all my suggestions were long term". I am a Process Engineer so long terms improvements is my profession!!

    Utter rubbish really as I did make improvements but couldn't get anyone to understand that a structure needs a good foundation before you starting building upwards.

    just thought I would list a few pointers to anyone that starts a probation period and hope it can be of use.

    1) At the start of the probation request a clear list of what they are expecting from you and how it will be measured. (I never had that and was told "try to find out")

    2) Ask if a weekly/monthly review will be held and ensure you are prepared (I had a monthly review,with no agenda and no nasties were mentioned)

    3) Ensure that you have a mentor or point of contact that you can go to every time you need help or information.

    4) Make sure the review is documented and do not be afraid to inform the reviewer where there are issues (lack of support,training needs,confusion over your objectives)

    5) Do not criticise the way the business operates or any of the workforce (managers can be very defensive and take things personally)

    6) Always make sure you have told them exactly what you have done and any reasons why things haven't been.

    7) Welcome any support or friendliness, but also be mindful that some people are not always what they seem - kept it professional until you are sure of people.

    8) Accept that you are the new person and people will be wary of you until they feel you can be trusted.

    9) Do not take anything for granted until the probation has finished and the job position confirmed.

    10) Accept that sometimes things don't work out and it may not be down to you - just endeavour to do your best and adapt to the circumstances.



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