Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #1
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    Default Early Probation Termination

    Recently employed on a three month probation contract in an industry I had not previously worked in.
    My employer recruited me based upon my skills and achievements at a far larger organisation with the intention of modernising their working practices.

    On my first day of working I had my role & responsibilities but received no targets, objectives, training or guidance and was told "off you go".

    Due to the small size and skills of the workforce obtaining information became difficult
    but I managed to understand the business set-up
    and started collating information,
    completed any tasks assigned
    and even sourced potential new business from a former employer.

    My manager has now decided with 3 weeks to go that "I am not a fit for their business as they work a different way to what I am used to " (they were pretty backward)

    I actually feel aggrieved at this decision as:
    - I had two monthly reviews where my performance or lack off was not discussed.
    - The reviews were at short notice (I had prepared from experience),not documented and new objectives not set.
    - Information & improvements submitted had not been read by other employees even after prompting.
    - The manager had been made aware that I could not tie down the necessary employees to get information,yet nothing happened
    - All tasks that were assigned were completed or in progress within timescales.
    - My termination meeting was again at short notice and out of the blue as I had no indication I was not performing.
    - The "not fit" reason was very weak and when I enquired in which areas they would not discuss it.

    I believe throughout that they have acted below what I would expect from a company and to dismiss me without following employment guidelines is very poor.

    Acas have been consulted and they agree that guidelines have not been followed and suggest that I follow procedure and appeal.

    Has anyone else experienced anything similar and what was the outcome?

    I would not want to work for this company again but they have left me at short notice with no income at the end of this month.

    If I knew I was under performing I would have tried to address this or look for another position.


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Hello and welcome to CAGicon. I expect the forum regulars will be along later with advice for you.

    It's always upsetting to be let go, I understand that. What have the company paid you, or what will they pay you? And what does your contract say about notice periods please?

    Best, HB

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Hi HB thank you

    Notice of termination is one month
    My probation would finish is 3 weeks time but they asked me to leave immediately and would pay me for the full month.

    I think my main issues are they gave me no warning that I was not performing with chance to address this and that the final meeting was conducted without the chance to prepare or have representation..


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Please wait for the people in the know, but they always say here that it's hard to argue about not having your probation renewed. They can use whatever reason they like, pretty much.

    It sounds as if they haven't behaved very professionally, but I'm not sure what you can do about that. As I said, people will be along later.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    It sounds like a cover up to me and they just want rid of you.

    Being under probation tho all they have to Say you haven't performed as they expected.

    Tough I know but that's the reality.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    That's the problem they can use that as an excuse yet can't give me evidence where I haven't.
    If anything it's the other way as I resolved issues that were outstanding and gave them over 100 suggestions on how to improve things.

    Acas advised that the lack of review process/indication of under performing and the way they handled the termination could be grounds for Wrongful Dismissal


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    I dont think you can claim for wrongful dismissal.

    You're in a probationary period and I think You have to be employed for 2 years or more.

    A user called sanji or close to that user name seems to be the expert on employment matters.

    Wait for their response


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Quote Originally Posted by Curly109 View Post
    Acas advised that the lack of review process/indication of under performing and the way they handled the termination could be grounds for Wrongful Dismissal
    Did ACAS say what you would receive if you brought a wrongful dismissal claim successfully? AIUI normally what you'd get is employer being forced to pay you the salary for the full contractual notice period. But sounds like that is what they are doing anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtbush View Post
    I dong think you can claim for wrongful dismissal.
    Your in a probationary period and I think Yu have to be employed for 2 years or more.
    That's for Unfair Dismissal. Unfair Dismissal and Wrongful Dismissal are two very different things. Wrongful Dismissal is a day 1 right.

    http://www2.cipd.co.uk/pm/peoplemana...dismissal.aspx


  9. #9
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    Hi Ethel
    No that was not discussed

    Ethel is correct and Wrongful Dismissal is the avenue that I am looking at.

    I believe my ex-employer acted outside employment guidelines as:
    The reviews were not scheduled,
    nor documented and
    content signed for confirmation of what was discussed.
    (importantly no targets were set so what was the measurement for suitability?)

    If they felt I was under performing this should have been discussed,
    improvement actions agreed,
    opportunity to improve given and all documented.

    Notice of termination pending should have been given to allow for time to prepare and arrange for a representative to attend.

    I now have a dismissal on my employment record, without I feel justification


  10. #10
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    Default

    Sorry.
    Don't waste your time.

    There is no law that says employers have to do anything like this
    - up to two years, as you have been told, you have little access to employment rights.

    You have a right to notice.
    They have you notice.
    Unfortunately that's your lot.

    There's no further claim under wrongful dismissal.
    The things you are talking about here would be relevant for unfair dismissal
    - irrelevant for wrongful dismissal.

    Wrongful dismissal only covers dismissal that is in breach of contractual terms.


  11. #11
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    Default

    I believe the 2 year rule only applies to Unfair Dismissal

    as Ethel pointed out Wrongful Dismissal does not have these restrictions and can be applied from day one of employment.

    The points I am trying to gain information for is they have not followed Acas guidelines for the review and termination process e.g Notification in advance of a scheduled meeting and intent to dismiss.

    This has been taken from the firstpracticemanagement.c o.uk Probation - Contract termination section

    Whilst an employee cannot claim unfair dismissal in the first year of service, which has now been increased to a two years qualifying period for employees starting on or after 6 April 2012,

    if you dismiss someone without going through a fair dismissal process an employee can claim wrongful dismissal, for which there is no length of service requirement.

    Wrongful dismissal occurs when an employer dismisses an employee in breach of the employer's contractual or statutory obligations,

    for example by failing to follow a contractual disciplinary / dismissal procedure or failure to give contractual notice.

    Employers can be required to pay damages for wrongful dismissal if taken to an employment tribunal


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    they have given you notice and are paying you for more than the notice period so wrongful dismissal doesnt come into it. Now, as they dont have to give a reason for letting you go it is all about the mechanics and they have that covered by giving you a months notice and paying you.

    Everything else you raise is of no interest to a tribunal. Lets face it, you said that they are rather backward so accept that you did not fit in to their organisation/prejudices. This doesnt mean that you did anything wrong so any reference they give should reflect that.

    This is not about disciplinary matters.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Yes
    sadly that's the way I see it and one of the things about modern employment law.

    One of my colleagues has now informed me that due to a sudden order increase they have to take more workforce on.

    I felt they were trying to run undermanned anyway without this

    am now thinking I have been sacrificed so as they can take on two directs.

    Who knows,but thank you for your help


  14. #14
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Curly109 View Post
    I believe the 2 year rule only applies to Unfair Dismissal

    as Ethel pointed out Wrongful Dismissal does not have these restrictions and can be applied from day one of employment.

    The points I am trying to gain information for is they have not followed Acas guidelines for the review and termination process e.g Notification in advance of a scheduled meeting and intent to dismiss.

    This has been taken from the firstpracticemanagement.c o.uk Probation - Contract termination section

    Whilst an employee cannot claim unfair dismissal in the first year of service, which has now been increased to a two years qualifying period for employees starting on or after 6 April 2012,

    if you dismiss someone without going through a fair dismissal process an employee can claim wrongful dismissal, for which there is no length of service requirement.

    Wrongful dismissal occurs when an employer dismisses an employee in breach of the employer's contractual or statutory obligations,

    for example by failing to follow a contractual disciplinary / dismissal procedure or failure to give contractual notice.

    Employers can be required to pay damages for wrongful dismissal if taken to an employment tribunal
    No. You don't understand.
    There are NO statutory "guidelines"
    - the things you think they must do are advice only.
    They don't have too do them.
    They haven't broken any contractual terms.
    So there is no wrongful dismissal here.

    Wrongful dismissal would be, for example, dismissal without notice when there is a notice period in your contact.
    And the "compensation" is that you get paid the notice pay.
    Nothing more.
    There is no claim for wrongful dismissal for a claim of unfair dismissal, and yippy cannot claim unfair dismissal, in most circumstances, until two years.

    So try to action this and you will lose - but you will also alienate them and your reference will sail off into the distance. They neither need to give your a reference, nor do they need to give your a good one. Only a truthful one. The minute the word litigatious appears in that reference, you won't be impressing any potential employers. If you had a case, fair enough. But you don't.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Thank you for taking the time to reply but please try to be a bit less aggressive - can I please ask what your professional experience is?

    As it stands Acas and after todays visit, CAB have advised that I use my employers appeal process as they both believe that Due Process has not been followed.
    This has also been supported online by two advisory HR practioners and in addition 2 Employment law firms are interested in the chain of events I have submitted.

    The ball is now in my court but I would still appreciate information from others.


  16. #16
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    Default

    I think sangie is well involved in employment law in their normal working life ( from reading little snippets on their background)

    Sangies response is not aggressive, its truthful and stamps out any myths surrounding employment law.

    The CAB, whilst they do Stirling work, is run with volunteers. They often get it wrong. Mostly get it right but often wrong.

    With you being in a probation period, they do not have to support their claim with evidence. They don't have to put you on a development type course.
    All they have to say is they don't find you suitable.
    That's it.

    Its tough I know, but if the company like to treat people in this way, why would you want to work for a shady company with no human qualities?.

    They have contractually done everything they need to do to stay within the law. If they are so hard faced with you about this, tho wont be the first time they have done tho dance so they know where the boundaries are.

    Here is what a probation period means. Taken from a job recruitment site.

    What is a probation period?

    It is, essentially, a safety net for employers after the recruitment stage is complete.
    The probation period is a mutually agreed upon duration of time (typically anywhere between one and six months) in which your ability to meet certain performance levels

    in other words, the potential you exhibited in your interview will be observed and assessed.

    Pending a review, the subsequent failure to meet these standards within that period can lead to an employer dismissing an employee without fear of unfair dismissal claims and employment tribunals.

    Have the company dismissed you under any of the following headlines?
    Statutory Rights
    Personal Injury
    Health and Safety
    Discrimination
    Breach of Contract
    Whistleblowing

    Unless your dismissal falls under one of the above your chances of winning are very slim.
    A simple google search tells you that


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Quote Originally Posted by Curly109 View Post
    Thank you for taking the time to reply but please try to be a bit less aggressive - can I please ask what your professional experience is?

    As it stands Acas and after todays visit, CAB have advised that I use my employers appeal process as they both believe that Due Process has not been followed.
    This has also been supported online by two advisory HR practioners and in addition 2 Employment law firms are interested in the chain of events I have submitted.

    The ball is now in my court but I would still appreciate information from others.
    Sangie is with a trade union, I don't remember which. She may not sugarcoat her advice, but it's good and she has practical experience of employment problems.

    I would echo sgtbush's advice about the CAB and volunteers however well-meaning. Even ACAS aren't what they were since they started a large call centre, according to people here who are in the know.

    HB

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    This is correct.
    For several years now the front line staff at ACAS who you speak to have no legal experience or skills.
    They are a contract centre reading from a script.

    It,s interesting how one is always being aggressive and nasty when someone doesn't like ones advice.
    Never when they don't.

    Nobody here has any real idea who anyone is,
    and I'm not going to justify my position because someone demands it.

    If the OP thinks they address right,
    or that the advice CAB or ACAS might have given is correct,
    then they are welcome to follow it.

    n the other hand I know that it is the standard rubbish advice.
    Appeal away.

    you have the right to appeal (although not a legal right to appeal - that also doesn't exist).
    It doesn't mean you will win.
    It doesn't get you a case.
    And it doesn't change a single thing about the situation.
    There is no case.
    You will not win a claim.

    I don't care how many people think otherwise.
    And don't pay anyone any money either, because you'll never get it back.

    And with that, I'm out.
    I have plenty to do without imposing my legally correct advice on people who don't want to hear it.
    But when this goes pear shaped and you have a poor reference,
    do remember that that was also your choice.

    Make sure you really understand the risks your are taking
    - because you won't win any legal case.
    I guarantee that.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    Demand, Where did the OP demand anything from you? You gave strong advice(correct, as always) in which you make statements about well established organisations and then take offense when the OP questions your advice? You are far better than that.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Early Probation Termination

    "Thank you for taking the time to reply but please try to be a bit less aggressive - can I please ask what your professional experience is?
    .......

    The ball is now in my court but I would still appreciate information from others."

    I would call both those things "demands". Where are they asking for the professional experience of others? Aren't they saying "anyone but you reply"? That is deliberately insulting and dressing it up as a "request" doesn't make it polite...



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