Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

£6.99



Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #21

    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    Good old IPC and their "approved" signage.

    OK. "Sign 1" (the blue one in case they get merged).

    This contains the parking tariff and some (scant) terms and conditions. This doesn't appear to be an "IPC Approved" sign, but that's by the by.

    In the terms and conditions as displayed on that sign, it says at 6. "Return before or on your expiry time", leaving the awful grammar aside, you have complied with that condition, even if your vehicle was parked there for a month. You must have returned to your vehicle in order to put the pay & display ticket inside of it. Therefore...

    So, because you have satisfied condition 6. The term at 7 is invalid because you haven't broken the rules above.

    Seems fairly straightforward. If you break the rules we can issue a ticket, but if you don't break the rules we can't.

    -

    On to "Sign 2" (the red one in case they get merged).

    This is the magical "IPC Approved" sign. Let's look at the terms and conditions on this one.

    All vehicles must fully display a valid pay & display ticket in the front windscreen so that all details can be inspected. I'm presuming you did buy a P&D ticket and display it properly. So...
    Vehicles must be parked fully with the confines of a marked bay. I'm presuming that you parked correctly. So...
    Vehicles must not park on double yellow lines, hatched areas, pavements, or causing an obstruction. Seems to be a bit of a repeat of the term above, and as we've already assumed that you parked correctly.
    Vehicles parked in disabled bays (though quite how one parks in a bay that is disabled isn't explained) must display a valid disabled blue badge in the windscreen in addition to the requirements above. I've got a blue badge. I think it's "The Tufty Club", the pin has fallen off the back. Does that make it a "Disabled blue badge"? But anyway.

    Failure to comply with the terms and conditions contained within this sign, etc etc waffle waffle. You did remember to look INSIDE the sign for any additional terms and conditions, didn't you?

    But, presuming that there were no hidden terms inside the sign, you've complied with all of the terms and conditions displayed so...

    "Sign 3", the "P" sign isn't really worth mentioning as it's only an advertisement telling you to go and look at another advertisement.

    -

    So. Given all of the above. Where in their "IPC Approved" terms and conditions does it say that you have to remove your vehicle from the site when the P&D ticket that you've bought expires, and that if you don't, they'll issue you with a parking chargeicon notice?

    Their reason for issue of the PCN: "Expired ticket" isn't covered in their own terms & conditions. So they're down at the first hurdle.

    OOPS!

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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    Thanks for that great reply, I had never noticed the flaws in the signage like that.

    I did buy a ticket and park within the white lines etc.

    What do you recommend that I do next please?


  3. #23

    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    Well, you've already received the first bombardment of junk mail, the NtK.

    It's pretty much a waste of a stamp for you to appeal to Armtrack. IPC members tend to live on a different planet than everyone else and firmly believe that the laws of the land don't apply to them. They'll probably be talked in to (eventually) issuing a letter before actionicon either by BW Legal (BWL) or Gladstones (Gladrags) as they're the usual culprits.

    This is then the time to start teaching them that it does.

    Until you actually receive a lbaicon, I'd do absolutely nothing. You'll be drowning in letters from their pet debt collections (nothing to fear there) and probably one or two letters that are claiming to be from "Solicitors", usually solicitors acting as debt collectorsicon (so nothing to fear there either).

    You're in the right because you have not breached any of their advertised terms and conditions, therefore they had no reason to issue the NtD in the first place, and certainly no valid reason to get the keepers details from the DVLA.

    And safe in that knowledge, you let them waste as much of their money as they like until the house of cards that they've built for themselves comes tumbling down around their ears.

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  4. #24
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    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    Ok, thanks,
    Someone has suggested I write to them stating the following:

    I am the keeper of vehicle xxxx and am in receipt of your Notice to Keeper xxxxx

    The NTK fails to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, namely, but not limited to, section 8 (2) (f) in that a warning to the keeper has not been made. I agree with you that the the driver is liable for this charge but I, as the keeper, can not be held liable for the actions of the driver at the time. There is no legal duty to identify the driver and I will not be doing so. I have, as requested, passed your NTK to the driver and they may contact you about this matter. Consequently I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that no further action will be taken against me on the matter.

    Worth it or should I just sit back and do nothing?


  5. #25

    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    You could, it wouldn't do any harm, but honestly, you're wasting your effort and a stamp.

    There's no point in telling them what they already know. And believe me, they know. They're just banking on the fact that you (and most others) don't. It's a numbers game.

    We could use your help
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  6. #26

    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    DF, this is soooooooo much better than back to back eastbenders.......when you say it like you do, it really is crystal clear, they tie themselves up in their own BS and legal jargon, AWESOME!


    Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!
    HOW DO I START A NEW THREAD?



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  7. #27

    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    Now Will and John, owners of the International Parking Community have threatened some people for misquoting the name of their organisation as the Independent Parking Committee (which coincidentally happens to be the previous name)

    so Armtrac are in trouble for claiming to be a member of an ATA that doesnt exist and could well be sured by Gladstones for pretending to be an accredited operator of an organisation that doesnt exist but whose name is a trade mark.

    Comment has been made about the signs,
    the blue one with a big P on it is taking the P,
    it is an invitation to treat so not an offer contract as there are no contractual terms.

    The red one offers parking at 100 but this clashed with the blue tariff board that says you pay 1 or so and has a penalty charge for parking other than accordance with the terms BUT these terms are the precise terms you are ALLOWED to park under on the red sign for free!

    so is that a flat fee of 100 reduced to zero if you park badly or 1 increased to 100 if you park badly?
    You dont have to accept either of these sets of terms anyway because the signage fails to meet the standards laid down by the POFA and the worst that can legally happen is the landowner asks you to move.

    So you want to appeal to a company that gets things this badly wrong and hope they take any notice?
    they really cannot find their own backsides with both hands so good luck with that

    looking on the bright side, it does create a paper trail and shows how unreasonable any action they decide to take afterwards si as they have been told they are talking cobblers.


  8. #28
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    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    I did post them a letter stating:

    I am the keeper of vehicle xxxx and am in receipt of your Notice to Keeper xxxxx

    The NTK fails to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, namely, but not limited to, section 8 (2) (f) in that a warning to the keeper has not been made.

    I agree with you that the the driver is liable for this charge but I, as the keeper, can not be held liable for the actions of the driver at the time. There is no legal duty to identify the driver and I will not be doing so.

    I have, as requested, passed your NTK to the driver and they may contact you about this matter. Consequently I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that no further action will be taken against me on the matter.

    received a lettericon back from them, I went to the website to view the photographic evidence but it's nowhere to be found!

    Attached Files Attached Files

  9. #29

    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    Just the usual waste paper. File it.

    With the signage that you've already posted, there's not a chance on earth that they'll win a defended county courticon claim, so let them waste their money while you sit back and laugh at their ineptitude

    We could use your help
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  10. #30

    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    You should NEVER agree with them that the driver is liable, who are you to say that given that you cannot create a third party contract nor force someone into a criminal compact.

    If their procedures were close to being POFA compliant this sort of statement may well be taken at face value and having agreed with then that the driver is liable you leave yourself ope to a civil tort if the driver doesnt agree with you on this but is put to expense to argue against it.

    This is why we say ignire them when they get things wrong, let them make the errors rather than you putting your foot in it. However, as they are so incompetent this will never see the light of day even if they do try their luck so you can ignoreicon them and do so this time.

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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    Received this recently, should I do anything?

    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    bump


  13. #33

    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    What's the problem?

    PLEASE REFRAIN FROM HITTING 'REPLY WITH QUOTE' IF YOU ARE SIMPLY REPLYING TO THE LAST POST IN A THREAD..JUST TYPE!!
    it makes a thread twice as long to scroll through..save data download times and costs
    If you want advice please PM me a link to your thread. PM advice is not allowed!!
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  14. #34

    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    this is not a lbaicon, just a threat to pass the matter on to a DCAicon (ooh scary!) or to Gladstones the incompetent solicitors who own the IPC ( well own a company that calls itself the international Parking Community because they are too incompetent to actually register their name as a trade mark so that tells you a lot about how good they are).

    You have already told them they are wrong so no need to tell them again, let thek spend their money getting someone else to fail to get you to pay up.


  15. #35
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    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    Thanks, sit tight and do nothing?


  16. #36

    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    for the moment, yes. If the DCAicon writes then you ignoreicon them as well, if Gladdys write then you show us the letter


  17. #37
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    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    Ok, thank you.


  18. #38
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    Exclamation Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    Hello,
    have you got any further with your Armtrac issue?
    I have one of my own which is proving to be very upsetting.

    I parked in one of their Hayle car parks last June 2017.
    I purchased a ticket, put it right way up on dashboard, checked it was visible.

    When I got back to the car I had been issued a parking ticket.
    I checked the time and I was inside the allocated period

    I wrote to them thinking there had been a mistake and the fine would be rescinded.
    Instead I was told that I had not stuck the ticket to the windscreen as the signs dictated and the ticket was not clearly visible.

    I had taken photos to prove it was, but it was clearly visible from standing by the windscreen and not from in front of the car where Armtrac had taken the photo.

    In my naivety, I still thought this an error that would be resolved easily, so I appealed to the IPC.
    Again I was ruled against.

    I called Armtrac and said I was not going to pay a fine as I had proof I had paid appropriately plus the amount they were claiming was disproportionate and inappropriate.

    I heard nothing more for nine months, until out of the blue I received a letter before claimicon from Gladstones.

    I moved house three weeks ago, so they do not have my correct address, but in the move I threw out the parking ticket and letters thinking I would hear nothing further (I still have the photos though)

    It has been 13 months now and I am very unsure what to do.
    I did however act correctly, pay the correct fee and enter into dialogue to try and sort this.
    Please help!
    Thank you

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  19. #39

    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    hi ya
    please start a new threadicon <<clickme
    of your own
    this one is for advising Jim Rogers

    PLEASE REFRAIN FROM HITTING 'REPLY WITH QUOTE' IF YOU ARE SIMPLY REPLYING TO THE LAST POST IN A THREAD..JUST TYPE!!
    it makes a thread twice as long to scroll through..save data download times and costs
    If you want advice please PM me a link to your thread. PM advice is not allowed!!
    DX
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  20. #40

    Default Re: Armtrac Security windscreen PNC - Over stay at St.Ives

    you need to contact Gladstones in writing (never email) and tell them that you deny owing any monies as their terms were not breached and Armtrac are as likely to win a court claim as England are to win the world cup retrospectively. Abusing their position as the parking worlds worst solicitors and owners of the IPC should make them ashamed of themselves but it is well known that Gladstones have no moral comass so you suspect that they will try and persuade Armtrac to try their luck in court as it is all money for them even when they lose their clients money.


    Dont be shy, they arent just the next taxi on the rank, it is in their interestes to try it on.


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