Hi there,

any help much appreciated.

I had agreed a bathroom to be installed to be completed by a sole trader who was at the time an approved fitter by a very large, prestigious (?) well known limited company.

I agreed on a quote for around 10k to install the bathroom, this was provisionally agreed and as per his quote 10% deposit £1000 was transferred to his personal account.

It would the follow to appear that the aforementioned installer had a falling out with the limited company, and become no longer an approved fitter for the ltd company.

Now the whole point of me hiring him to install my bathroom was that he was approved by a much larger company, so his work would be guaranteed by them, thus there was less chance of him a) walking away from the job half done or b) should any problems arise after the installation the ltd co. would arrange for them to be rectified, basically the job would be underwritten/ guaranteed by the larger ltd company.

So once I received the email from the Ltd company and confirmation from the installer stating that he is no longer on their approved list of fitters and his work would not be guaranteed by the limited company, I changed my mind and decided not to go with him and his quote.

The only problem is that i have already paid £1000 deposit and as per his quote it states:

Payment terms:

10% non-refundable deposit, to be paid to secure booking prior to commencement of works

I have already spoken with the installer through email correspondence and whilst he has not said specifically he will not return my deposit, he is insisting that the deposit is non refundable.

Do I have any chance of getting my deposit back? As I no longer want him to install my bathroom as his workl will not be guaranteed.

Is this a breach of contract as the implied terms of the contract (ie being underwritten by a larger ltd company) are no longer part of the contract.

Also his details were passed to me through the ltd company so there is no doubt he came through them, even though he was carrying out the job as a sole trader.

Hope this all makes sense and would love to hear back from any knowledgable members.

Best wishes

BB

not so knowledgeable but, it seems, as you say, that if the contract included an underwriting and that is no longer available, then the contract may be voided and put back?

also, there may be a case re the underwriter seeing as you say they have outsourced it on being instructed?

Hi there Ford,

thanks for your input, yes this is my understanding, so if we were to go to court, which at the moment is likely, the ltd co. would be accountable and obviously wouldnt be wasted time as they clearly have assets however its headache also, so would be better to resolve amicably.

Best Wishes

who is the company?

C.P Hart

http://www.cphart.co.uk

presume then you did an order direct with hart, and then went with one of their 'approved' outsourced installers.

i see on their site that they say

'Finding the right installer is as important as finding the right bathroom. Your C.P. Hart sales advisor can put you in touch with one of our approved and manufacturer acceredited bathroom installers. They will all be completely independent of C.P. Hart, and your contract would be directly with the installer. One significant advantage, however, is that all of the installers we have approved are familiar with C.P. Hart products. We regularly monitor the performance of our approved bathroom installers and advise them on C.P. Hart quality standards.'

https://www.cphart.co.uk/installation/

You make certain suppositions about the obligations and value of the firms approval of the fitter. They do make it clear that they are NOT subcontractors but CP Hart are merely introducing the fitter to you and that menas being approved is thus a meaningless term.

However, you should enquire why the person is no longer "approved" as it could be a very minor reason or something that is significant to your contract with him.

What is not clear is how CP Hart have any obligatiions to you, have you bought the materials from them and then they recommend/push someone to fit it? Do you pay separately for labour and materials? These are important things as they show who you actually have a contracyual relationship with and what the limits of that is. In reality they never did fully guarantee his work

Ultimately the bloke either can do his job or he cant and you can claim against him if he does things wrong. At the moment you dony have a legal reason to cancel the contract and get your full deposit back.

I dont like the way the company does business, it is like a carpet store subbing out the fitting but them saying they are not responsible for anything about the carpet at all. I would be putting pressure on them to reach an agreement with all parties regarding the deposit. I would ahve thought that the fitter keeping a small sum to cover his actual costs of what he has done so far is equitable but if he hasnt lifted a finger or spent a penny on your materials then the contract itself will mkost likely be considered as having unfair terms and this will be a btter apporach to getting you money back than arguing about a meaningless term regarding approval

thats the issue; what is the full circumstances and terms in all.

OP posted that they received

'..confirmation from the installer stating that he is no longer on their approved list of fitters and his work would not be guaranteed by the limited company'

then there is the co. saying they 'can' put someone in touch with an installer for their products, independent installer, contract is with the installer. ie no outsourcing/subcontracting?

any commission involved?

10K for a bathroom...

A bit steep if you ask me, unless you convert your lounge into a bathroom.

Anyway, if you haven't got the material from cp hart, cancel the order and they'll immediately wave the £1k you already paid.

If you already got the material, call them and ask to return everything.

With that sort of money involved, surely they'll sacrifice 10%.

Unless the £10k was just for the installer to get labour and material, in which case you are stuffed.

Make sure he's got assets before starting any court action.

test

setting up a small claim for 10k, all set and read to go just preparing the details of the claim.

Hi BBHB,

It would be good if you could give us an update and tell us a few details like :-

1. Who you are looking to take to court now, and why.

2. Why it's now £10K and not the £1K deposit you referred to in late 2017.

3. Who did you buy the bathroom items from and at what cost.

4. What did you pay for fitting.

Please include other brief details that may help us understand the latest scenario.

Be careful.......10K means Fast Track and not small claims.

thanks for this well spotted.

Regards

My claim is in relation to two bathrooms that have been installed incorrectly and deemed not fit for purpose by a registered Expert Witness M.B who has produced a CPR 35 compliant report. The claim is summarised in Irwin Mitchell LLP(IM) pre action letter dated ------------ 

My claim is for a total £36,722.00 excluding costs. The defendant has moved address since the issue of IM’s letter and had claimed not to have received the letter and accompanying support documentation. I have tracked the defendant to their new address and had all the IM documentation resent and signed for.

The defendant is claiming ill health and an inability to pay. In the interest of attempting to reach a settlement with the defendant I reduced the claim to £15,000. The defendant has continued to refuse to pay and I now have little choice other than to ask the courts to intervene on my behalf.

As a gesture and to assist the defendant in settling the claim I wish to proceed on the basis of the reduced sum of £15,000.

little update as to the claim, a claim has been issued on Money claim online

You have instructed  Irwin Mitchell LLP(IM) to act ?   £36,722.00 excluding costs. down to  £15,000 is one hell of a drop how are you genuinely going to justify that with in the claim ?

How much did you pay for the two bathrooms initially ?

hi there, 

Irwin Mitchel were initially instructed to run the case and the case had more than 51% chance of succeeding (their criteria) once I.M found out that the defendant does not own his current property they decided to change their stance and say they won't follow through with the case, not sure how the defendant not owning his house effects the prospects of success of the case.

14,000 was the labour done 

36,000 is the estimate to redo the bathrooms

18K a bathroom ...wow ...would love to see your home 

yes come to think of it its rather excessive,

I think because the bathroom hadn't been done in 25 years was time to splurge!

Would love to invite you round for a tea and biscuit !!

Op, these figures not only are excessive, but are unreal.

How can 2 bathrooms cost 36k?

I have been in the trade decades and built bathrooms in rich Richmond from scratch, pipes, waste, the lot.

Sometimes I wanted to price myself out of a job and quoted 10k.

That was the top and would've given me at least 6k profit.

Building a bathroom is not like painting the sistine chapel. 

I lost track of your case, but have you been to court and got a ccj?

As mentioned before, if the other party hasn't got assets, you'd be left with more expenses to pay .

A drop from 36k to 15k makes me and everyone else think that your claim was grossly inflated from the start.

I know judges don't even know the price of a pint of milk, but seriously, even they would struggle to believe that 2 bathrooms would cost 36k.

Hi there,

thanks very much for your post King,  much appreciated.

MCOL was submitted on 05th September so only recently.

you state that if the other party doesn't have any assets, will be left with more expenses to pay, could you elaborate on this?

Regards 

BB

Simply you can squeeze a dry sponge as much as you like, but you won't get any water.

In other words, if you obtain a ccj (win in court), and note the IF, you will be faced with enforcing the ccj.

Of course the best route would be hceo (more fees), but if this guy hasn't got any assets they will not be able to collect anything for you.

At that point you would be left with a piece of paper saying he owe you in excess of £35k and court fees to pay.

As his credit rating would be trashed, he could even apply for bankruptcy and write off more debts.

He would then need to wait 6 years before being clear and start again.

At that point even if he became richer than bill gates, you won't be entitled to anything. 

So unless you're sure he's got assets, think very carefully about throwing more money at this.

Especially with an over the top figure which will inevitably raise the judge's eyebrow.

Honestly,  as an experienced builder I tell you that £35k for 2 bathrooms is a massive figure, unless you like gold taps like Saddam Hussein. 

HI King, point taken and I did laugh my ass off the bit about Gold Taps, Saddam Hussain, which actually is quite uncanny!

Best Wishes

BB

I just re-read this.

Irwin Mitchell LLP(IM) dropped the case because without a property in his name and/or a stable job, there would be no chance to make him pay the potential ccj.

I suppose you were on a conditional fee agreement with them (no win, no fee).

hi there,

no was under home insurance policy so was all included in household cover...