Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


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  1. #1
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    roygoodbeat Novitiate



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    Default Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    Hi.
    Just needed some advice.
    I currently work in the care industry.
    At our place we do sleep ins as our clients need 24 hour care.

    A letter was written complaining that in light of recent rulings regarding sleep in pay,
    the employer was underpaying us under the national minimum wage.

    This was discussed in our staff meeting with all the staff names typed on it.
    The area manager wanted to know who sent it.
    They were very dismissive of the letter.
    The area manager commented on the poor way it was written.
    They wrote directly to the individual concerned saying they would look into it.
    As per company procedure, they failed to respond within the 10 working days.

    In fear of being singled out and the effects it could have,
    an anonymous letter was sent to the company.

    It stated that they had broken the law by not paying the minimum wage.
    It also said we should have been paid the full amount from the end of July.

    It requested that a response had to be made in 14 days on how they were going to address the back pay.
    It also expressed concerns of what may happen to the sleep ins and how it could affect our residents.

    Whilst not everyone saw the letter before it was sent,
    then the manager has shown the staff since.

    Whilst some did not give their consent, all agree, including the manager that the contents were right.

    Our concerns were over the monies owed to us prior to the 27th July 2017,
    the monies due since then and proposed changes to our sleep-in arrangements.
    This also include our residents would not be covered.

    We wrote this as we feared our jobs if HR found out.

    1) The company tried to find out who wrote the letter. They got all the staff to sign if they knew anything about the letter and did they give authorisation. Most of us signed we did not in order to protect our identities,
    but we all signed “but we agree with the contents”.
    We all felt the company was more focused on who wrote it, rather than address the issues.

    2) Over the last few days,
    they have called us all in individually after the company had an emergency manager meeting.
    We were all told verbally that the company has until March 2019 to pay.
    In addition, they said that they would be waiting for an appeal due in March over sleep in pay.

    From what we have understood,
    the ruling regarding back dated pay by the inland revenue only applies to pay owed up to the 27th July 2017.
    Normal enforcement by HMRC applies for pay after this date.

    A number of care companies already pay the correct amount,
    but the company still only pay 35 for a 9.5/ 10 hour sleep in.
    We are often up during the night and rarely get any extra.

    3) We were all told verbally that the company may have to consider closures if this is pursued. We all felt that this was delivered in a threatening manner.

    4) In terms of moving forward,
    they have proposed that our sleep ins will change to on call.

    We were told we could leave the premises at night and come back,
    but we must be able to return to the premises within 10 minutes (Nobody lives within 10 minutes).

    It would be monitored and anyone arriving later will have their contracts terminated.
    In addition,
    we asked if all the staff leave the premises,
    what would happen.

    We were told someone would have to stay and cover.
    In other words,
    we all feel they are trying to avoid their legal obligations and have shown no interest in any ideas or other ways that can address this issue.

    Most of us feel that the company is trying to take advantage of some of our foreign workers who are too afraid to upset the company.
    This was given verbally and they wanted us to sign that we had a supervision over this issue.

    We have also checked our contracts.
    We have noticed that training is also not paid.
    Training is a requirement by CQC and other care authorities.
    All staff must have certain training.
    This also, we feel is breaking the rules on the minimum wage.

    Any advice would be appreciated.


  2. #2
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    disgruntled2007 Novitiate



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    Default

    1. What is your hourly rate of Pay?

    2. In any one reference period, how many hours do you work?

    3. In any one reference period how many sleep ins do you attend, and how many hours does this equate to?


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    As far as I can see on google searches the government are not backing this and keeping it at 35 per sleepover.
    Unfortunately the company is correct, it could face closures as some estimates for the industry is as high as 600 million that is alledged owed.


  4. #4
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    Default

    True.
    However we work for a private company.

    They have been paid the funding and we feel they do not want to give up on some of the profits they have made over the years.

    We know many in the care industry and many are treated like dirt by their companies as they try to make as much money as possible.

    I am all for companies making profits but most of us are fed up with not beong paid what we have to put up with.

    Most of us do not work in care for the money.

    Its so we can make a difference.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    I do empathize with you but I cant see how the industry wether private or public could sustain this.
    Your effectively doubling the cost of nighttimes.
    I work, I'm paid a wage, Im also on call to anywhere in the country at a phone callicon.
    If I get the call I travel but if the situation is not resolved and I go " off shift" I'm paid a retainer, not an hourly rate.

    Please understand that I'm playing devils advocate here. I'm just trying to get you to see their side ( even though they ain't very cooprative or polite)


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    So why ignore my questions, OP?

    There is a valid reason for them...


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    sleep in pay was about 30 not long ago the difference between hourly rate and resting rate/

    get full rate for sleeping in - get a life.

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    I've seen this thread before. Elsewhere. What was wrong with the answers you got then?

    The answer was that the current situation is that these rulings are not yet legally binding.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    Its a case of ask mommy/ask daddy.
    Ask mommy a question, dont like the answer, go ask daddy.

    I'm too bemused by Someone wanting the minimum hourly pay to snore their head off.


  10. #10
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    Default

    To be fair,
    this is down to the law making a determination and that being enforced by the government.
    It isn't up to us to decide.

    there are strong arguments that support the fact that people are at work and should be paid accordingly.
    Arguments that have won some legal support.
    But this isn't yet enforceable.

    It isn't about what people think is right or wrong.
    It's about the fact that the OP knows that this can't be enforced and wants a different answer.

    When it can be enforced,
    then they will be entitled to push it,
    and take legal action themselves if they wish.

    But there are no magic wish fairies that make things happen for you.
    You have to do it yourself.
    And that applies whether you are in a union or not.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    As I read it, the Government ordered HMRC to suspend actions against the care companies, not the care companies not paying the minimum wage. This, as I see it, means that all overnight sleepovers should be paid at the full rate.

    As an example, a friend of mine is a carer who no longer works nights but was paid up to 35 per sleepover (dependant on which company she worked for. In addition to this, the last company she worked for never paid for travel time, allotted one care appointment to end at 10:00 but another client, who could be miles away, a start time of 10:00 meaning that my friend had to leave the first client early to get to the next one on time.

    The law states that when you leave home and go straight to a client (not the office) that is classed as travel time and should be paid. She wasn't!
    The company paid 12p per mile once she had completed over 25 miles. She had to buy her own uniform from the company at an inflated price.

    This same company never informed her of her right to claim back tax paid to cover her mileage and uniform cost and cleaning.

    This same company made over 4m in profit in 2015 which was distributed to shareholders but at the expense of their worker. My friend regularly worked over 60 hours per week yet her payslip never showed her hours but a breakdown of the salary showed that she was being paid for approximately 30 hours. Is this fair? Oh, and she has to pay for her own business use insurance for her car.

    I have every empathy with carers. This is a thankless job with zero job security as they are generally on zero hour contracts and if the complain about the working conditions, they get less shifts and obviously less money.

    When councils outsourced the care to private companies, this was all about reducing costs but they gave the contracts to the cheapest, not the best option for their clients. If they were to bring these back in house, staff rights would be protected.

    Sorry, rant over. I felt I had to respond to some of the comments made so far.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtbush View Post
    Its a case of ask mommy/ask daddy.
    Ask mommy a question, dont like the answer, go ask daddy.

    I'm too bemused by Someone wanting the minimum hourly pay to snore their head off.

    Correct - get a life or move on to a job where you are wrapped up in cotton wool - what a state this country is in these days when people want paying for nothing just being there if needed.

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    Default Re: Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    Isn't that the point though, OC, they don't always sleep when they stay over?

    From what I've read, carers can be in a home with people who don't sleep, have panic attacks or other reasons for being looked after by someone. They don't always sleep through and I've read about people being up half the night trying to help people who are distressed or confused.

    My mother's care home had people with dementia who didn't know what time of day it was and would roam around at night getting into trouble.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    so did my wife
    on her own with Adults with special needs,

    started one on the floor working and one sleep in just in case needed = flat rate,,

    must say within a few months no extra sleep in person available and she did all night checking Blood for sugar levels etc etc for quite some years
    - and still suffers sleeping disorder by waking up at 3 a.m. etc but when she started as sleep in for 2 nights also some day duties she was paid 30 per sleep in regardless if called to go with one of the patients to hospital etc, god help her if that situation arose the time she was on her own working.

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    I think we are getting beyond ourselves here. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people didn't agree that it was a bad idea to send children up chimneys! The law is the law. And the law says that this time is work time and should be paid. And I agree with silverfox. The conditions of care workers are generally abysmal. All of which is also irrelevant.

    I go back to the fact that there is no magic wish fairy. If the OP wants paying according to the law, they must enforce that themselves. Even when, and if, the government allow HMRC to enforce this, the employer is going to know that it was their own employees who reported them. There is no escaping standing up for yourself. If people want better terms of employment, then they must fight for them. Who did you think got the ruling made in the first place? Organised workers in the care industry. No fairies granting wishes here - you must do it for yourself. And if you can't or won't, then any worker deserves the employer they get. People have died for the rights we enjoy today, and yet workers sit around whinging about their employers, letting those rights be stripped away, and blaming the unions. You want something? Get off your knees...


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Sleep in Pay- Breaking the law on the minimum wage.

    OP. your managers are bricking it because they tender for these contracts and are now stuck with having to pay out an extra 20% in salaries overall so as you are not union members they will react with a knee jerk to try and stop their losses. If they sack a couple of peopel for insisting on their rights they think everyone else will say they are happy being shafted and pass that thought on to their lobbyists to government in the hope that the matter is overturned.
    It is a risk but fronting them out or suggesting a suitable interim settlement they can live with and then boast to their friends they have got this box ticked will stop the witch hunt. The alternative is a series of unfair dismissal claims as you go one by one



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