Hi all,

Bit of a strange one...maybe. I have been repairing on and off for many years - around 10 years + primarily laptops and mobile phones.

I have bought an item of eBay primarily on the basis that it COULD fix an issue with a laptop but if it did not, I would send it back and this was the agreement with the seller.

During fitting of the board, I felt the socket for the wireless antenna was not as tight as it should be but it was too late as I had now plugged in the cable. Fast forward an hour, it turned out the board did not fix the issue and in actual fact, the laptop would most likely be written off - I let the seller know this.

On removing the board, the loose socket did indeed give way and came off.

Problem now is quite obviously, the seller is refusing to accept the board back. I have not gone through the returns process and it is all verbal.

Where does one stand in a situation like this?

On one hand, there is no way that socket should fall off - And I can prove this by simply getting a wireless card or board and plugging in/out the antenna.

They're made to handle this and in my test case, I was heavy handed too just to prove a point.

There are two sockets and the other one is fine- the original board also has been in and out of the system multiple times and the sockets are fine.

My view is it was not soldered on properly to start with and the installation simply ensured it would snap off.

Even if it was soldered on, there clearly is not enough strength to hold it down so would have come off either way.

Thoughts?

Board itself has the wifi onboard and is for a small laptop - board being around the £400 mark and so no small matter

Thanks in advance!

you bought it as faulty, the socket broke whilst you were fiddling with the board and now you want your money back.

I am surprised the seller was daft enough to agree anything in the first instance and am not surprised that they ahve decided to let you keep it after you have had a go at mucking about with it. It wouldnt be the sellers fault that the manufacturer didnt solder the socket correctly so why dont you take that up with them and see how far you get.

Anyone deciding to repair computers should know how to solder and if that means mounting the socket externally and soldering soem extra wiring to the board then you should be OK with that UNLESS you intend to sell the compter afterwards and that would make this a business transaction and you have no rights to a refund anyway so put it down to you own bad.

Hmm - I have to disagree.

you bought it as faulty

No: The listing was the board was working and not faulty. When I got it, I realised it was in actual fact faulty by the insecure socket. Visually it looked fine on arrival, but it was only during installation it was made evident that the socket was not secure by which time it was too late.

the socket broke whilst you were fiddling with the board

No, it was broken already. It's no different to buying a car where the fuel flap looks fine visually until you open it and it falls off the hinge.

You want your money back.

Yes, on the basis it was agreed if it didnt fix the main problem at hand (which it did not), it would be returned. The socket made this complicated.

It wouldnt be the sellers fault that the manufacturer didnt solder the socket correctly so why dont you take that up with them and see how far you get.

No, but it's not the buyers fault either. Going back to the car, if that car was bought from reseller on Smith Street, I'm going back there to get the flap replaced/fixed/car refunded not back to Ferrari.

But actually I did go to shop that acts for the manufacturer of this machine to find out whether they've ever had in-warranty devices handed in where the socket is like this, the answer was no suggesting most likely the removal of the board from the donor machine by the sellers/team had loosened it. There was no way to see this visually until plugging it in unless I was to poke every chip, socket, resistor with a tool to see if it falls off..in which case we would still be back to this.

Anyone deciding to repair computers should know how to solder.

I can solder, I don't microsolder.

The intention was to resolve the original issue it came into the RMA centre and hand it back. Where it stands now is the machine has been written off due to the board not being the cause (non antenna related).

Was the item listed as Used or Parts and not working ?

Was the item sold by a private seller or business seller ?

Can you prove the damage was there before you caused it to get worse and it then completely failed ?

Was it in the sellers terms that you could return it if it wasn't faulty?

My personal view would be not valid for return, you opened it up and could have done a number of things to it damaging it even further, you could have even caused the entirety of the socket damage but are playing off you just made it worse but how can you prove it either way? I would also guess you do this to earn a bit of money on the side so you should be expecting there is always the chance you are going to get something that isn't repairable.

you have to disagree, OK what law do you think applies that allows you to return something you broke. In short by doing anything you have lost any claim you could have had.

You havent said whether the seller was a business or a private individual and whether you are doing this for yourself or for gain- ie selling on the compueter when fiexed. By the wording of your origianl post you make it seem as though this is the latter so you wouldnt have the protection of consumer law if it was a business that sold you the item.

Was the item listed as Used or Parts and not working ?

Used

Was the item sold by a private seller or business seller ?

Business

Can you prove the damage was there before you caused it to get worse and it then completely failed ?

Visually there is no way you could tell. The socket is minute - we're talking the size of a 2mm screw head and so unless it was missing altogether, visually it would look when it is sitting still. You would only know once you actually put something on it.

This is no different to a pair of headphones going into a headphone jack. Is it round? yes. Is it intact, well yes. Until you plug it in and you find actually it moves.

This is what I am either failing to understand both your views on where you come from. How is it any different to buying a phone from carphone warehouse, plugging it in and realising the charger cable is wobbing and so not charging? Is this is the customers fault? As far as "nokia" are concerned, the board and charging socket is solderd on properly..could the customer tell? no as visually it was fine.

Was it in the sellers terms that you could return it if it wasn't faulty?

Yes, subject to a restocking fee which I was happy with.

Ericsbrother: Only if I strongly believe the item was faulty from the start.

Purpose of repair: I should have said, this is not actually me involved but a close friend - it was just easier to say it was me

In short, the person in question works for a repair company. So it's come in for repair due to issue Y, board MAY have fixed it but didn't and so on the basis of returning the board due to not fixing it (as mentioned, this was agreed), it was to be sent back.

As it is, no problems, but due to the socket, problems.

But the way the repair centre works is essentially everyone is a contractor so there is no reselling going on but simply the item goes back to whoever sent it in.

Sorry both, I've just asked a few more questions to the person in question. The engineer doing the repair also owns the laptop so in this case it was a private individual buying from a business and the repair was not done on site of the repair centre.

We both today experimented with a written off board and after multiple times of plugging in and unplugging the antenna, the socket remained connected.

Same test was done on a standard wireless card from a laptop, whether soft or hard handed, no issues with socket.

the point is that it is not a consumer contract so liability for proof of fault lies with the customer and that will be damned hard to prove. If an agreement was even verbally made about the condition of the board and for return of goods then you have that as a contract and the seller must oblige. the problem with a verbal contract in B2B is thet are very difficult to prove and the risk is to a large degree shifted to the "professional" who is doing the work.

I still think that resolving this will require goodwill rather than an obligation. It is not a consumer issue so forget trying to argue no reselling, it is for gain and that is that

Thanks EB

So just to clear things up in my mind, scrapping all the above..

Person A buys an item from Person B - a business on eBay.

Item is listed as working/fully tested and has warranty.

Person A recieves it and find it's faulty by physical design - ie, somehing is broken on it.

The return of goods was via messaging "Seller is worried as these components are fragile but is ok with Person A to return if need be"

Ironically, person A was being honest by saying in the first instance it was during installation he noticed the socket was insecure and could have said easily it was broken on arrival.

A slight twist, he raised a return and the seller accepted it - any implications ?

no, the point is that the person buying it in this case is not a consumer, it isnt for their personal use but by way of a business. As the seller is a business then if they sold the itwem to a consumer then they would have to ensure that it was fit for purpose and the proof of that lies with the seller. the consumer just needs to say it was wonky on arrival and that is enoug in law to get a replacement or refund. As the buyer was a business then no obligation to buyer from seller other than those expressly given. In other words if the seller says " if it doesnt work send it back and we will refund" then that is the contract otherwise it is for the buyer to prove it couldnt be fit for purpose and a wobbly socket may not pass that particular test, particularly after admitting trying it out when not enclosed.

That is why i say that what was discussed and a certain amount of goodwill is needed to resolve this as you have no consumer rights and very little in the way of other rights buying a secondhand board as a B2B deal.

so stop using the term person A and person B, it is business A and business B whether you like it or not sometimes you have to suck it up and move on. If it is a genuine design fault then take it up with the manufacturer/importer but again with a secondhand board you are relying on goodwill unless you have a lab report handy

EB: I think thats where there is some confusion and apologies if it sounds like we're going round in circles.

I did update earlier to say I did get the wrong end of the stick slightly. It is indeed consumer and NOT business use.

The guy who bought it bought it from his own personal ebay/personal paypal account for his own laptop.

Being the middle man here, I assumed because he works for a company that deals with repairs etc, he was doing it for them but it is his own one in question that is the issue and completly unrelated.

I have checked this and his ebay/paypal account does indeed show the transaction as opposed the the business one that they may use for the business repairs.

Let me know your thoughts and if this is still a "business 2 business", I'll wrap it up and let him know to call it a day.

Thanks again

then it is not B2B and he will have more rights, even though it is a secomdhand item it must be fit for purpose and of merchantable quality so selling a board with a lose socket may well fall under those bits of the CRA. Now, the hard part is proving that it was wonky from the time it arrived and whay you say about trying out the socket doesnt instil me with confidenec that it is a straightforward return. However, I have won "he said she said" consumer disputes in court so if your friend cn show what is known as a "clean pair of hands" iefull honesty in this matter then they stand a decent chance of getting somewhere.

If bought through ebay then there is a process that can be used that will just about automatically side with the buyer so he should start a SNAD dispute in ebay or paypal and take it from there. he will then have to retunr the item by tracked menas and a refund will be in the offing. Ebay dont really get involved in legal disputes so they force all sellers to abide by the dispute resolution proce4ss even though it can be patently silly at times

Another thing, this thread shows the perils of posting on behalf of someone else, we get only part of the story and then make commnts based on what we interpret from that. Always best to hear it from the horses mouth so there is nothing lost to chinese whispers