Hi.

My father in law was shopping last Wednesday in Manchester City Centre and visited a book store. He was with his wife. They are both in their late 70's.

During the visit, then went down 3 flights of stairs in store to the book section, but after the 3 flights of stairs, there were 2 steps that you couldn't see. My FIL fell and as he was going down, he tried to grab a stand and cut his hand open. He also smashed his face into the floor and was bleeding heavily from his nose.

Staff came to help and my MIL was furious about no signs for the 2 small steps, and the staff were saying 'yeah, I know, we should have a sign'. They weren't bothered in the slightest.

My MIL asked for a first aider. The store never had one! They called security who didn't really know what to do. They were trying to stop the bleeding from his hand and face with toilet roll. Then someone produced a small first aid bag and the security were arguing about what they could and couldn't apply to his injuries.

The staff wrote the incident down in the accident book. They gave him a bottle of water then sent him on his way! They never once offered to call an ambulance! He left the store with his wife and both were in shock. My MIL said she was shaking like a leaf and didn't know what was going on.

So he left the store with his face covered in blood, and his hand bleeding and got a bus home! He never went to hospital as he is 'old school' and everything will be okay.

They never told me about this until last night. I am livid that the store let him leave like this and there was no first aider to help. I asked about photographs and they said they think someone took one of the steps but not sure. They don't have camera phones. I asked to see my FIL's hand but my MIL had just put fresh bandages on. She said she thinks it needs stitches as the cut is wide open, but he won't go to the hospital.

So what can we do about this? I am disgusted in how he was treated and fobbed off.

I was wondering if I could go to the store today and see the accident book. Also I'd like to take a few photos myself of the area and see if there are any warnings in place yet. I'd also like to see where CCTV is situated in store and how I can get a copy.

Please advise if possible, I'm so angry right now how he was treated! Thanks

I would take photos today if you can, security might not like it but tough, ask to see the manager, be polite and see how that goes today and in the mean time get the father in law checked over at the hospital so his injuries can be documented.

in the mean time get the father in law checked over at the hospital so his injuries can be documented.

No.

A&E (or more correctly 'the Emergency Dept') isn't the place to go for 'injuries to be documented.'

If his injuries need assessment and treatment, then an A&E or a minor injuries unit, or an urgent care centre, yes.

Use of A&E for 'lets get a report for medico-legal purposes, not due to medical need' is an abuse of a facility likely already over-stretched.

"Injuries treated": yes.

"Injuries documented" (rather than treated): no. A&E is a place for assessment and treatment.

If the injuries are unknown and it happens to be a Sunday I would go to the hospital anyway to check that every think was ok and be advised when I got there as to if I was in the correct section/department.

If the injuries are unknown and it happens to be a Sunday I would go to the hospital anyway to check that every think was ok and be advised when I got there as to if I was in the correct section/department.

The injuries aren’t “unknown”.

They are also at least 3 1/2 days old. If they needed to be seen why wait 3 1/2 days?

If they are at least 3 1/2 days old : why do they need to be seen on a Sunday, unless there is an ongoing problem that can’t wait.

You want people to be seen over a weekend in A&E without establishing there is a clinical need first.

No doubt you are also the sort of person who then also complains about the long waits in A&E!

I’d never put off someone going to be seen if they need to be seen for their health. “Getting injuries documented” (which is what you said they should give do, even if you are now trying to dress it up as something else) is completely different though.

As the father in law had hit his face and was bleeding heavily from the nose I would have no hesitation in encouraging him to take him self off to the hospital today and I say this because A/ He is an older person and B/ By smashing his face into the floor and bleeding heavily from the nose is worthy of an investigation as soon as possible to determine no injury was obtained to the head.

As the father in law had hit his face and was bleeding heavily from the nose I would have no hesitation in encouraging him to take him self off to the hospital today and I say this because A/ He is an older person and B/ By smashing his face into the floor and bleeding heavily from the nose is worthy of an investigation as soon as possible to determine no injury was obtained to the head.

It is 3 1/2 days later.

Unless there is immediate concern of an untreated problem (& why do you think there is from what the OP has posted?) :

why A&E?

Why today (Sunday)?

http://www.northlincolnshireccg.nhs.uk/your-health/choosewell/

You should only attend A&E (sometimes known as “Casualty”) if you are badly hurt, seriously ill or if you have been advised to go there by SPA (or NHS 111), your GP or a Pharmacist.

 

This includes when someone:

 

• is unconscious

• has severe chest pain

• has a fever and is persistently lethargic despite having paracetamol or ibuprofen

• has a head injury and vomiting

• has heavy blood loss

• is having difficulty breathing (breathing fast, panting or are very wheezy)

• has severe abdominal pain

• has a cut that won’t stop bleeding or is gaping open

• has a leg or arm injury and can’t use the limb

• has swallowed poison or tablets

• has an object lodged in nose or ear.

 

Where does “no new problem, original injury 3 1/2 days ago” fit into that then.

One of the issues with “go to A&E, to get the injuries documented” is it leads to politicians coming up with “solutions” like:

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/commissioning/commissioning-topics/urgent-care/revealed-nhss-plans-to-bar-patients-from-attending-ae-without-a-referral/20035470.article

Which I think is a bad idea (on many levels), but “inappropriate attendances” gift to the politicians the ability to say “look, we have to solve this problem”.

On the issue raised.

Your father in law can request the CCTV footage from the store by way of a Data Protection Subject Access Request. A third party cannot make the request directly as they were not a data subject that was captured on any CCTV. The same issue applies to the store accident log. The cost of a subject access request is a maximum of £10. The store should have a process for such requests.

Your father in law can obviously issue a letter of authority asking someone to make the request on his behalf. Just write out a simple letter template for your father in law to sign. The template would include his full name and address. It would say something like. I Fred Bloggs authorise Betty Spencer to act on my behalf to make a Data Protection Act Subject Access Request to xxxxxx store Manchester City centre for the following.

CCTV recording of the staircase at the rear ground level on date xxxxxx time xxxxxx which may have recorded the accident of Fred Bloggs.

A copy of the store accident report entry that was made.

You would need to act quickly, as stores delete CCTV footage after a period.

Once you get the info, your father in law can approach a local Solicitors that deal with accidents on a no win fee basis.

It also depends what the injured party wants, and the limits (if any) on what action they’d take.

Hi. Thanks for the responses so far.

I told him yesterday to see his GP on Monday morning and let him look at his injuries. The GP will then be able to determine whether he needs it looking at further.

I went into the store today and took some pictures. The 2 steps now have black and yellow hazard tape on the edges. I ot a better idea once I was there of the layout and at either side of the steps are display units. This is what he grabbed as he fell and how he cut his hand open. Speaking to him earlier, he confirmed it was the metal edging of this stand (so I have said 'maybe' he should see if he needs a tetanus jab)

I spoke with the assistant manager today who took my details and I gave them mine. The manager should be ringing me tomorrow morning. I told them that a copy of the accident report would be needed and any CCTV covering that area.

My FIL does not want any bother and, like I posted earlier, he is 'old school' so thinks it's just an accident. It is an accident but one that should not have happened. His hand and face are a mess and I'm just so upset. I'll see what he wants to do about it. We're not ambulance chasing or anything, however, he will be off work for a while because of his hand (he works part time as a maintenance man) and he is shook up. I feel he should at least be compensated for his small loss of earnings as he doesn't have much.

Anyway, thanks again, I'll take a note of the SAR etc and see also if he'll let me deal with this on his behalf.

By the way, this is not a little independent shop or anything, this is a nationwide store, which frustrates me more!

If he has been vaccinated against tetanus in the last ten years, OR has had a primary course of tetanus immunisation (3 jabs) AND 2 ‘boosters’ since : he doesn’t need a tetanus jab.

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1316.aspx?categoryid=67

It used to be one every ten (was 5!) years.

(They realised that the benefit of a ‘booster’ every 5 or 10 years was marginal once you had had 5 in total, and was outweighed by the risk of harm from adverse reaction to repeated tetanus vaccinations).

There is an exception to this where the risk/benefit equation changes (for people travelling to areas where medical care isn’t reliably available). They can still get boosters after 5 doses total, but this is the exception to the rule.

(.pdf added here to try to stop the site breaking the link below)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/148506/Green-Book-Chapter-30-dh_103982.pdf

Pages 381 and bottom of p.372

just to say, YOU wont get a copy of the CCTV and unlikely a copy of the accident book. Your doctor might or a solicitor, but its unlikely you will. Especially if its a major store.

(.pdf added here to try to stop the site breaking the link below)

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/148506/Green-Book-Chapter-30-dh_103982.pdf

Pages 381 and bottom of p.372

Still gets broken.

https://tinyurl.com/pehf5og