Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


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  1. #1
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    Default Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    Hi, thought I'd see if I could find any useful advice here. I'm very anxious so any good pointers much appreciated!

    I'll keep it as brief as I can: I'm a one-man IT dept for a medium size organisation - permanent position that has risen in seniority over 12 years. My line manager is proposing a reorganisation that will end my current role and replace it with an extremely similar role on a 2-year fixed term contract. redundancyicon is an option, and I am unsure as yet if 'they' are keen for me to take it, or take the new role.

    I want to stay on, and I believe the new role is precisely my current role just with a new job title and an improved job description. My current job description is pretty vague, but the new role describes precisely the work I have been doing for years. The only real difference is that some more junior responsibilities will be removed and given to a new, junior role (which is great).

    If I take the new role on 2yr FTC, I presume I will not get redundancy at the end of that contract if they choose to let me go. I cannot afford to lose my job security like that!

    I have a 1st consultation coming up, and I will argue that the new role represents what I do currently. So my questions are...

    Can they do this? If I can prove that the new role describes precisely what I currently do, can they still make my post redundant and leave me with the choice of changing to FTC?

    If I took the FTC, might I nevertheless be considered to have been continuously employed for my 12 years+, and would that render the 'fixed term' irrelevant as I would be considered permanent in law? I don't know, but this is a possibility I have gathered might be the case from googling around.

    If 'they' would rather I left, can they even make me redundant when they are replacing my role with such a materially similar one, albeit FTC? I have absolutely no history of failing to perform or being told of any problems with my work, so there are no grounds for dismissal.

    As I said I'm going to argue that the new role is my current role, I want it, and I don't want to be FTC. I think I have a good case, but I'd love to be able to reference actual laws that back up this position!

    Thanks again if anyone has any guidance.


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    what's the rationle for it being a FTC? I can't see the point myself.

    You shifting to a FTC doesn't eradicate length of service to date, so I think you would be entitled to redundancyicon after 2 years anyway; so may as well go for it.

    How large is the organisation you are in? That will affect the consutancy process.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    Their may be a reason in the company's 2 year plan/5 year plan so they may have a valid reason for making the position redundent.
    On the flip side I cant see the point in making you redundent with sound 10ish years service and then taking someone on on a FTC. It will cost them thousands in redundancyicon even if they offer you the position on a FTC. Your still entitled to your payout.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    Size: About 100 full time staff.

    This point about perhaps still being entitled to redundancyicon at the end of a 2yr FTC is key. If that is the case, much of my fear is erased! But I will need to be sure, as otherwise I would be better off taking redundancy now rather than risk being out of work with nothing in 2 years.

    The supposed rationale for making the role FTC is because "...it is envisaged that the skills/experience required will evolve in this period." No **** Sherlock, that's always been the case, and I could say that about every role in the organisation! I feel this rationale is extremely weak. Reading between the lines, I believe my (fairly new) line manager is unsure of me - our personality types don't quite gel unfortunately - and wants to leave a door open. I have had a succession of managers over the years as the post above me is a bit like the 'Defence Against the Dark Arts' post.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    just don't let them give you a break between contracts and you are fine; type of contract not important, length of service is

    https://www.gov.uk/redundant-your-rights/redundancy-pay

    See also https://www.gov.uk/redundant-your-rights/consultation - get your rationale ready!

    Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    This is promising, thank you!

    I will go read and research some more to be as sure as I can.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the 'mastermind' behind this move is unaware of this, and believes they can avoid paying me redundancyicon if they don't want me in two years.
    Otherwise what is the point of making it FTC?

    Now I'm wondering if I should raise this in consultation, or just keep it in my back pocket knowing that I'm still assured of either a job or redundancy at the end of it.
    During 2 years I can also be networking and working on my credentials, to be better prepared for a job hunt.


  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder sgtbush Novitiate



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    Default Re: Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    You raise it on 1st consultation.
    If and its a big if, they can change your contract to a FTC they would have to make you redundent and then re hire you.

    What they may be doing is changing everyone's contracts to FTC as they don't have to pay redundancyicon at the end of a contract.


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtbush View Post
    Younraise it on 1st consultation.
    If and its a big if, they can change your contract to a FTC they would have to make you redundent and then re hire you.

    What they may be doing is changing everyone's contracts to FTC as they don't have to pay redundancyicon at the end of a contract.
    I agree. You point out to them that you know this. If they are above board in their proposal, they won't care that you know. If they are up to something it gives them pause - you won't be a walkover. Just be sure, as suggested already, that there is no break between contracts and got are in no worse a position.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sangie595 View Post
    I agree. You point out to them that you know this. If they are above board in their proposal, they won't care that you know. If they are up to something it gives them pause - you won't be a walkover. Just be sure, as suggested already, that there is no break between contracts and got are in no worse a position.
    Thanks folks, I think you're right. I'll bring it up and see what they make of it.

    So if I am still entitled to redundancyicon later if I take the FTC, my remaining challenge will be whether they actually want me to take it or not. If they don't, then I will be arguing that the role is the same as my current role or close enough that they must give it to me. My understanding is that you can't make someone redundant and then advertise a new role that is clearly the same role.


  10. #10
    Basic Account Holder sgtbush Novitiate



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    Default Re: Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    They might be able to defend that on financial grounds.
    But for you, regardless your entitled to redundancyicon, even if they want to put you on a FTC


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    if you take the FTC and they let you go at the end of it you will have 14 years qualifying service, not 2 so entitled to that as a redundancyicon package. This is the point that Emmzi and Sangie were making, a change of contracts doesnt affect the past. Same as if you oved to a different job in the company altogether, still continuous service. What will change is the right to challenge whether the job is redundant at the end of the 2 year contract. they will probably offer you another 2 year contract, or a year or however far into the future they think they can see so it wont really change anything. beware of taking the golden bullet and then accepting the new job offer, that has hidden problems for both sides if it goes badly


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericsbrother View Post
    if you take the FTC and they let you go at the end of it you will have 14 years qualifying service, not 2 so entitled to that as a redundancyicon package. This is the point that Emmzi and Sangie were making, a change of contracts doesnt affect the past. Same as if you oved to a different job in the company altogether, still continuous service. What will change is the right to challenge whether the job is redundant at the end of the 2 year contract. they will probably offer you another 2 year contract, or a year or however far into the future they think they can see so it wont really change anything. beware of taking the golden bullet and then accepting the new job offer, that has hidden problems for both sides if it goes badly
    No it won't change. Someone on a fixed term contract had exactly the same redundancy rights as any other employee. It would be unlawful to treat someone differently simply because their job is on a FTC. So, for example, if there are six jobs that are the same and everyone has two or more years of employment, the employer cannot decided that the one job that is on a FTC is the one to go - all six posts must be put at risk and a fair redundancy process run. Obviously, if this is the only post of this type, then the job could become redundant at any time, but that would hold true of any form of contract. And if this is the case, the employer must look for a suitable alternative role before making them redundant. The distinction between fixed term contracts and so-called permanent contracts died a long time ago - the length of service is what matters now.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    Had my 1st consultation. They agreed the point that I would be entitled to redundancyicon after 2 yrs if I got the FTC role and it wasn't later renewed. BUT, the current redundancy deal is 4 x statutory, and this is something they would not necessarily have to offer me later. I said that is something I would want to negotiate if I were to be offered the role, as I can't live with the prospect of mere statutory redundancy at the end of it.

    I also explained my argument that the new role is essentially my current role and that therefore it should automatically be mine if I want it.

    Nothing I can do now except wait for the 2nd consultation Still, feeling fairly optimistic about the outlook. Thanks again for the advice everyone.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    I don't rate your chances of negotiating a "might happen" in 2 years time

    Worth negotiating: training that will keep your skills and thus employability current

    Decide. Do you want to keep the job now or not? Stop trying to butter your bread on all sides and the edges!

    Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmzzi View Post
    I don't rate your chances of negotiating a "might happen" in 2 years time

    Worth negotiating: training that will keep your skills and thus employability current

    Decide. Do you want to keep the job now or not? Stop trying to butter your bread on all sides and the edges!
    I agree with this. There is no room to tie them to such a good deal in the future, and any agreement would not be worth the paper it might be written on. Take what is on the table now, or don't. But do not expect anything other than another two years work and, possibly, statutory redundancyicon. Make your decision based on that.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Permanent role being made redundant, replaced with fixed term contract. Legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmzzi View Post
    I don't rate your chances of negotiating a "might happen" in 2 years time

    Worth negotiating: training that will keep your skills and thus employability current

    Decide. Do you want to keep the job now or not? Stop trying to butter your bread on all sides and the edges!
    I demand more butter! But yes, I can see that is an unlikely thing to be able to negotiate. I will at least question the rationale for making the role FTC. And yes, I'll be focussing on my employability over those 2 years if I get them!



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