Hi,

this is my first post and I apologise if by mistake I did not pick the correct section.

I received a call from Rossendales few days ago asking me to pay £50k Capital contribution order for my defence expenses after my conviction in 2016.

I had already paid 5k as income contribution order before the conviction.

I told them that I prefer to receive any communication by letter as I like to keep evidence.

I did not confirm anything on the phone and I told them that I would have made my enquires to the Legal Aid Agency via a Subject Access Request.

So far I have not received any Capital contribution order notification from Legal Aid Agency.

Details:

I did not go to the trial as I pleaded guilty.

I have two jointly properties with my wife but not liquidity in my bank account as I paid the Court confiscation order in full leaving me with not cash at all.

The two jointly properties were already declare during the means test.

The two properties have outstanding mortgages.

Currently I am jobless and receiving JSA.

I live with my wife and two young children.

The total equity is over threshold of £30k

I am probably liable to pay something even if I strongly believe 50k is excessive and not yet supported by evidence.

I would like to protect my wife and children first.

Can I transfer my share of the two properties in my wife sole name or the name of a trustee, and form a Family Protection Trust or a property protection trust.

If this is legally possible, how much could cost and which are the negative consequences to use a Trust, such as taxes or future costs?

Thank You very much for your help:-D

If this is legally possible, how much could cost and which are the negative consequences to use a Trust, such as taxes or future costs?

Might they then make you bankrupt for owing the costs and not paying them?.

If so, they might ask the Trustee in Bankruptcy to look at asset transfers prior to the bankruptcy,

and seek their reversal (either as 'transaction at an undervalue' or 'preference to a creditor').

(The former if you disposed of an asset without getting full recompense for it, the latter if you claimed that you owed the transferee the value).

just remember this is the DCA wing of the rossers not the bailiff section

the following thread you might find useful

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?362914-Capital-Contribution-Order-(4-Viewing)-nbsp&p=3956509#post3956509

As Bazza says, if you disinvest yourself of an asset to avoid a legal responsibility it will be treated as though you still have it so any monies spent on doing this will be wasted.

A £50k capital contribution is very high

the legal aid people must have a good reason for asking for this rather than just a table of calculations.

I would assume that a costs order was made at the time so that will need to be read carefully.

You own 2 properties so you aren't going to be homeless if they force the sale of one of them so the may well look at that

Thank you very much for your reply.

I would like to clarify some information.

At the moment there is no capital contribution order issued on me nor there was at the time of the conviction.

So far I complied with the Income contribution order which I paid in full already for a total of £5,500 one year ago.

Rossendales only mentioned on the phone that I am liable to pay 50k as CCO without proving that.

As far as I understood first the CCO must be issued, then served on me, then the debt collector starts to chase the debt.

If the debt collector returns the CCO unpaid to the Legal aid then the Legal aid can apply for an order charge on my properties or file a bankruptcy request on me.

I agree that if there is already a CCO and you try to transfer your property can be seen as a way to escape the order.

In this current scenario there is not a CCO yet so I just asking if the transfer of my part of property to my wife before a CCO is issued can be still challenge by legal aid agency.

Otherwise, it sounds like any convicted person would never be allowed to legally sell his property after his sentence because he should wait an see if Legal Aid wants to issue a capital contribution order on him.

Thank you for your help

ps: this morning I sent a subject access request to the Legal Aid agency.

Regarding “convicted person would never be allowed to legally sell his property“

1) you aren’t really talking about a ‘sale’ of a property though.

A sale of a property for its full value wouldn’t be an issue, as there wouldn’t be less assets for a creditor, they’d just be in a different form (‘cash’ instead of ‘house’)

It would be the “intended to deprive a creditor” aspect that makes a difference, not the sale itself.

2) “Never” is a very long time. for personal bankruptcy the TiB can go back a maximum of 5 years for a transaction at an undervalue, less (2 years??) for a preference.

As in my original post, I just wonder if it would make any difference if my wife and I constitute a Family Protection Trust or a property protection trust. I not familiar with those and just exploring if there is a legal way to protect our property.

thank you

i'd be writing that letter in that thread I linked too as well

oh and one final point

STAY OFF THE PHONE!!

never ever discuss your supposed debts with any powerless DCA at your door or over the phone.

there is NO legal obligation to .

The 50k of Capital contribution does not make sense to me. I pleaded guilty so never went to trial. I was convicted for a white collar crime. I sent subject access request this morning to the Legal Aid Agency and I am thinking to do the same with Rossendales .

Just one more question if I may.

If, for instance, the total defence costs is 40k and my total equity value in the two properties ( after mortgages and partner equity) is over the threshold of 30k, mentioned in the Regulation, will l have to pay the difference 10k ? Just asking as I am confused.

thank you everybody for your thoughts.

not sure on the latter but id not be entertaining the rossers at all

don't give them a bighead, as a dca they've no powers at all.

Thread moved to the appropriate forum...General Legal Issues..please continue to post here to your thread.

Regards

Andy

Hi,

please see my comment about a letter I received on 27.09.17, which is attached.

1- I sent an email to Rossendales on 20/09/17 stating:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I received a phone call on 19/09/17 around 11:30am from someone who did not say his name but argued to work on behalf of your company Rossendales.

According to this person I should pay some Legal Aid costs for a legal proceeding occurred to me in 2016.

During this short conversation I did not give my consent to any sort of agreement nor confirmed the information provided by this person.

I am not in the position of verify the authenticity of this phone call.

I would like to draw to your attention that I have decided to make further enquiries directly to Legal Aid Agency.

Kind Regards

2- I never received a Capital or Final Contribution Order from the Legal Aid Agency so far. Only an income contribution which I had paid in full before the plea guilty.

3- The letter I received is full of grammar and syntax errors

4- They stated “ when a trial has ended”. I never went to trial as I pleaded guilty. How can the final defense costs be 55k?

5- They stated “ as you failed to pay this [capital] contribution within the required time scale”. As mentioned at point 2 I never received a Capital or Final Contribution Order from the assessing authority (LAA)

6- The letter does not give any deadline nor a details of the sum to pay

7- The letter is not signed

I presume at the moment they do not have a Capital contribution order ( maybe later the LAA will issue one it the law allows that) so they just what to see my next move as in a chess game. Probably they expect me to call them and enter in a discussion about this matter.

Instead, my plan is to ignore them and just dealing with their client (Legal Aid Agency) who is the assessing authority and for this reason on 25/09/17 I sent a Subject Access Request to LAA.

At the moment my goal is to find out what they have on me and how they calculate the income and capital contribution if any. As I mentioned in my first post I have two properties jointly owned which during the investigation were under a restrain order so could not be form part of the legal aid assessment at that time . After the conviction I paid a confiscation order in full and the restrain order was lifted. Probably I will have to pay something but I want to do that within the rights acknowledged by the provisions of law.

Any suggestion is welcome.

Thank you

Rossendales.letter.pdf

I would not be conversing with rossers at all.

I wouldn't be either but you do need to be talking to someone as its legal aid issues therefore government departments and they can take forceful alternatives

I never said I do not want to pay.

I want to comply with the rules and the rights allowed by the Law.

However, they (LAA) need to follow a specific procedure in order to claim a capital contribution.

I think I am at the early stage.

There is not CCO at the moment and I have only approached the LAA with a subject access request.

I need to see what they have about me before speaking to them.

If I am wrong in this method of approach I am open to suggestions.

Thank you very much

you are doing the perfect thing by an SAR

you need not do anything more.

await its outcome.

there is however, should you wish to

no harm in writing to LAA

tell them what and why you are doing the sar.

Hi,

Please I need some help.

on 25/09 I sent a Subject request to Legal Aid Agency

on 27/09 Received letter from Rossendales dated 22.09.17 claiming that I should pay capital

contribution order 50k.

I posted the letter above.

They say I fail to pay.

This morning I received an Order For Recovery af Award, which is attached.

My point is:

I never received any capital contribution order

I never refused to pay so how can rossedales say I failed to pay

I was not given any notice to pay the CCO nor a deadline to pay

How can they issue this order without serving the capital contribution order.

How can the county court issue this order without evidence of the CCO and my refusal of pay.

Also, Rossendales did not send any dunning letters to claim that I failed to pay.

Now I am lost.

I do not what to do.

Tomorrow the enforcement agent could know on my door.

Any help if really welcome.

thank you very much

convert-jpg-to-pdf.net_2017-10-02_15-42-48.pdf

Ring the court and ask why you never got a chance to contest the claim

Post 1 is your script

Thank you dx100uk for your quick answer.

I called the court earlier today and was told to contact the applicant ( Moon Beever solicitors ) who made the application on behalf of Legal Aid.

The court said I have 14 days before of the enforcement.

This person was not very helpful anyway.

I will call tomorrow as you suggested.

However, I found out that Moon Beever work also for LAA as rossendales.

I called Moon Beever and the lady said someone from her office will contact me via email.

I think they realised they need time to set up a credible story.

They should have sent a letter to claim the money before the 3rd of August as this is the day when the submitted their application to for the Court order.

There are some missing pieces in this story.

They never claimed the money especially via a Capital Contribution Order

but the reached the end of the procedure already by a Corut Order even if never communicated neither verbally nor written that

" I do not want to pay"

because nobody asked formally and legally to pay.

So how can you allow this Order?

Thank you

Ring the court and ask why you never got a chance to contest the claim

Contest it on what grounds?

Potentially on the following grounds :

-that the 50k is based on an old assessment

-LAA did not take in to consideration that after conviction I paid a confiscation order of 56k

-that now I am under job seeker allowance therefore am unemployed

-that I was never provided evidence of the breakdown of the whole sum of 50k

-No debt collector claimed the sum in compliance with law and regulation

Question: when an Order For Recovery of Award is issued should I have the right of appeal?

thank you

is this link above a suggestion that the Order for Recovery of Award is in fact the Capital Contribution Order?

thank you

No...I just posted it if it may be of any use to you.

thank you