Jump to content


Withholding video evidence


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 2389 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hi all I have a DM coming up on tue and I have just received the letter stating about the disciplinary.

 

Now there is video evidence but I am not being allowed to see it until I am in the disciplinary.

 

I have everything else as in W/S and my statement which I didn't want to make but made under coercion and duress which I informed my manager.

 

I need to know can they withhold evidence as without it I and my union rep can't properly defend.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Replies 101
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Go to the meeting, look at the CCTV andask for a 15 minute break so you can discuss with your rep what to do.

When asked to do a statement under duress without much info about what they want, you should always remain vague and state that you have not done anything wrong.

What are the allegations about?

Link to post
Share on other sites

They are with holding it cos I ain't got it how can you prepare a defence if you don't have the evidence that you are relying on you can't be expected to go to a DM with a half baked defence.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I suppose you are a driver and had a bust up with a motorcyclist.

What did you say in your statement?

I would have said: "I have no recollection of this event and maybe seeing the video evidence would refresh my memory. In any case I have not done anything wrong"

Didn't the union rep advice you on what to write in the statement?

Link to post
Share on other sites

As I only got the DM letter at 16.30 today I have not spoken to my union rep as he is unavailable till Mon thus me asking these questions.

 

I asked to see all the evidence.

they sent me a statement from the biker that is not even signed or says this is a true version of events.

 

Then there was my 7 line statement roughly outlining what I recalled.

 

Then there was this other statement from a record of discussion I had with my manager on a totally seperate issue.

 

Sod knows what that was there for.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They are with holding it cos I ain't got it how can you prepare a defence if you don't have the evidence that you are relying on you can't be expected to go to a DM with a half baked defence.

 

You know what you said and did ; you base your defence on that.

Is it that you want to see what evidence they have so you can fib??

Link to post
Share on other sites

But then that creates another obstacle, having thereafter to rely and prove no representation could be made, ?

 

Why give a reason not to be able to argue a case and take risks, tony c is being forced into a corner, so and in my opinion should give himself the time, if needs be to present a defence, not in a matter of hours but weeks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

As I only got the DM letter at 16.30 today I have not spoken to my union rep as he is unavailable till Mon thus me asking these questions. I asked to see all the evidence. they sent me a statement from the biker that is not even signed or says this is a true version of events. Then there was my 7 line statement roughly outlining what I recalled. Then there was this other statement from a record of discussion I had with my manager on a totally seperate issue. Sod knows what that was there for.

 

 

It doesn't matter that the statement is not signed etc. It's not a court of law and the stadards are lower. They also don't need to prove you DID do anything, just that they have a reasonable belief that you did.

 

If they have a statement and a video, I would prepare for the worst. Any mitigating factors that day?

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

Link to post
Share on other sites

You know what you said and did ; you base your defence on that.

Is it that you want to see what evidence they have so you can fib??

No it ain't wanting to fib it's about wanting to have a fair trial and me not having all the evidence puts my defence in jeopardy. And if you want to be judgmental then keep your sarky comments to your self. I came on here for advice not to be ridiculed.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The meeting that has been arranged is to look at the evidence and so that questions can be asked.

It is not the completion of the process, where you have no rights to follow it up with a full defence of your position.

 

. Depending on what you see, you can request a full copy of the CCTV and to go away to review it with anyone that you to seek to advise you e.g union rep.

 

Suggest you review the companies employee handbook on conduct expected and disciplinary process.

 

Make sure you understand it and have a copy with you at the meeting.

 

The company are presumably responding to a complaint and need to review whether there is a conduct issue or not.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

Link to post
Share on other sites

No it ain't wanting to fib it's about wanting to have a fair trial and me not having all the evidence puts my defence in jeopardy. And if you want to be judgmental then keep your sarky comments to your self. I came on here for advice not to be ridiculed.

 

There will be no fair trial, because it isn't a trial! Your defence is the facts of what happened. That is all you need, the truth. The video tape will bear out that truth. Unless what you say happened isn't what the videos evidence shows. In which case, it's fairly evident which is the true facts of the matter. There is no point at all trying to shape your defence around the video evidence unless you intend to attempt to lie about what it shows. The employer knows that. You either know what happened and don't need to be "reminded", or you don't remember, in which case you don't remember and that is what you say.

 

If being able to put a better slant on what that video shows is the mainstay of your defence, then you are in serious trouble. And refusing to let you see the videos until the hearing will not make an arguable case in law. The argument that you are attempting to put throws your defence into question - if you didn't do what the other party says, then the tape will show that to be the case. How well their statement and your statement reflect the facts as demonstrated without favour on the recording may well swing the balance of probability one way or the other. This is a perfectly legitimate approach by an employer. The other party won't have seen it to make their complaint. So it will verify their statement or not. The same applies to you. That is fair.

 

And whilst I appreciate that you didn't suggest this and won't do it, employers often consider going off sick in the face of a disciplinary meeting the last bastion of the guilty attempting to delay the inevitable. It rarely works in your favour, and it certainly won't get you that footage. The best advice you will get is to tell the truth. Nobody ever got tripped up in a lie by telling the truth.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No it ain't wanting to fib it's about wanting to have a fair trial and me not having all the evidence puts my defence in jeopardy. And if you want to be judgmental then keep your sarky comments to your self. I came on here for advice not to be ridiculed.

 

Tony,

 

can you remember what you did and said?

 

It's better to be honest - say what you did, or that you can't remember - and people can give best advice about how to present your case.

 

People then won't need to judge based on half a story, and can perhaps help with the best way to word things?

 

As it is, you asked if you have a right to see the video in advance - no, but they are not withholding it, you will see it on the day and can, as suggested, ask for a recess to consider your response.

 

Are there any other questions about the process or legalities you would like advice on?

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

Link to post
Share on other sites

You know what you said and did ; you base your defence on that.

Is it that you want to see what evidence they have so you can fib??

 

 

That is being a bit pre-judgmental about someone wanting to fib, especially when you do not know the facts.

 

If it were me, I would go on the sick for a couple of weeks, and give myself time to see this evidence.

 

No, it is asking a reasonable question.

See those two characters after the word fib? The "?"'s ..... in association with the preceding "Is it that ....." they create a thing called a question ... asking about something, not stating that it is that thing.

 

As for "going on the sick for a couple of weeks" : if the OP is medically unfit for work then they should be off work.

However claiming to be unfit for work on the advice of someone off the Internet?!?

if they claim to be unfit when they are not : further risk of dismissal for gross misconduct!

 

The best advice you will get is to tell the truth. Nobody ever got tripped up in a lie by telling the truth.

 

Spot on, 100%.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No it ain't wanting to fib it's about wanting to have a fair trial and me not having all the evidence puts my defence in jeopardy. And if you want to be judgmental then keep your sarky comments to your self. I came on here for advice not to be ridiculed.

 

Yet, the truth is fair.

 

The truth doesn't depend on "if it wasn't in the video I might get away with it".

If something isn't in the video they can still believe the biker over you ....

Stick with the truth and they'll be more likely to believe you than the biker, especially if the biker's statement is contradicted by the video.

 

Suggesting sticking to the truth isn't judgmental, nor is it ridicule ......

It is a way of avoiding getting caught in an actual lie (or, almost as bad in a disciplinary : looking like you are lying).

It is not just about "what can be shown to have occurred", but also "who is most believable".

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no reason to lie it's the biker that is lying I am frustrated that I can't see the video so I can remind myself what actually occurred.

 

 

The biker has said I flew into a rage and deliberately drove my van at him.

 

 

But in his statement he has said he was 6ft in front of me with another biker behind him but in front of me.

 

 

I did tell him to go forth and multiply but he has said I verbally abused him with swear words thatci don't use.

 

 

He is lying through his teeth and this is why I am getting irate cos I bloody can't detest liars

Link to post
Share on other sites

If something is in the video, they are entitled to consider as fact.

 

You don't have to have perfect recall.

State what you recall to the best of your availability.

If it isn't in the video, and you statement and the biker's are contradictory, it comes down to who is believable.

 

If the biker's statement is contradicted by the video, and yours isn't (nothing that you state being contradicted by the video) ... it doesn't matter if you have said "I don't recall" or "I don't recall clearly, but what I do recall is"......

 

In fact, constructing a statement after reviewing the video risks your statement being "too perfect". You don't have to have perfect recall, and a statement that doesn't have any "I don't recall" doesn't ring as true as "I've said the truth, and said when I can't be sure".

It is both about what occurred (that gets shown) and who is believable about what isn't shown.

 

This applies to the biker's statement, too, BTW - if they have lied (or been mistaken!) and the video shows it: "Well, they seem open to being mistaken in their statement ...."

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no reason to lie it's the biker that is lying I am frustrated that I can't see the video so I can remind myself what actually occurred. The biker has said I flew into a rage and deliberately drove my van at him. But in his statement he has said he was 6ft in front of me with another biker behind him but in front of me. I did tell him to go forth and multiply but he has said I verbally abused him with swear words thatci don't use. He is lying through his teeth and this is why I am getting irate cos I bloody can't detest liars

 

To be fair, you have previous here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?404425-section-5-public-order-act.

 

If you are totally sure you said or did nothing abusive on this occassion, you have nothing to worry about, the video will confirm that

 

If you did, then best 'fess up and we can help you work on your apology/ mitigation

 

Which is most useful for you?

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

Link to post
Share on other sites

If something is in the video, they are entitled to consider as fact.

 

You don't have to have perfect recall.

State what you recall to the best of your availability.

If it isn't in the video, and you statement and the biker's are contradictory, it comes down to who is believable.

 

If the biker's statement is contradicted by the video, and yours isn't (nothing that you state being contradicted by the video) ... it doesn't matter if you have said "I don't recall" or "I don't recall clearly, but what I do recall is"......

 

In fact, constructing a statement after reviewing the video risks your statement being "too perfect". You don't have to have perfect recall, and a statement that doesn't have any "I don't recall" doesn't ring as true as "I've said the truth, and said when I can't be sure".

It is both about what occurred (that gets shown) and who is believable about what isn't shown.

 

This applies to the biker's statement, too, BTW - if they have lied (or been mistaken!) and the video shows it: "Well, they seem open to being mistaken in their statement ...."

thanks
Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair, you have previous here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?404425-section-5-public-order-act.

 

If you are totally sure you said or did nothing abusive on this occassion, you have nothing to worry about, the video will confirm that

 

If you did, then best 'fess up and we can help you work on your apology/ mitigation

 

Which is most useful for you?

 

OP was going to refuse the FPN and go to court (in that thread about a different set of events).

OP, did you go to court? what was the outcome? (depending on the outcome it might be relevant to your current situation !)

Link to post
Share on other sites

This above is great advice.

Nobody ever remembers everything.

 

 

Representing employee's is what I do.

And there are two things I can tell you.

 

 

Anyone who is able to remember everything perfectly is lying to me!

And if two stories match perfectly they are colluding and both lying to me!

Your only concern is to tell the truth as you remember it.

 

 

Don't elaborate on it.

Don't try to make it fit in a box of what you think happened.

Or what ought to have happened.

That's why they won't show you the CCTV yet

- it is the nearest thing to an independent witness they have.

 

And don't get irate.

If he's lying, he's lying.

So what?

People tell lies.

 

 

But people who get irate make mistakes!

You do not need to compound this by showing a side of you that you really don't want the employer to see at the moment.

I'm sure we'd all admit to having suggested that someone "go forth" given the right circumstances.

 

 

When I drive through the centre of our nearby big city it happens fairly often, as the cyclists there appear to have a death wish and have failed to appreciate that my car is a big steel box and not a flimsy bicycle. And we all know that it's always the motorists fault when the hit the cyclist, despite the fact that they shift across lanes in front of moving cars without signaling, go through red lights, and weave in and out of traffic like idiots!

 

 

we aren't unsympathetic or ignorant about how you must be feeling. But what we are is objective - and you aren't being.

So you are letting yourself get angry at people who are being objective and actually helping you by doing that.

 

In getting angry like that, the worst thing that will happen here is that one of us will snap back at you.

If you act like that in a disciplinary situation then you are confirming to the employer that you have no self control, and that you may be likely to do something rash if provoked.

 

 

So you are supporting the case against you!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I did tell him to go forth and multiply but he has said I verbally abused him with swear words thatci don't use.

 

 

Did you tell him to "go forth and multiply", or did you tell him "F***-off""

 

From: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?404425-section-5-public-order-act.

 

I your driving up my arse can't you see my signs I then said stay the f*ck off my arse

 

So, is it (this time) that you didn't swear, or that you did swear, but dispute the actual swear words used (e.g. you did use the f-bomb, but not the c-bomb as claimed.......)

That difference might mean the difference between "no misconduct" and "misconduct, but mitigation", or "misconduct rather than gross misconduct".

 

Additionally: What outcome are you looking for?. Are you already subject to any disciplinary warnings?

Link to post
Share on other sites

style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 2389 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...