Received a claim form from Rectums via the Northampton county court this morning with issued date 15th September.

They have wacked on legal fees and court costs of course.

I have been doing a bit of research and have dug up a few anomalies which I will post later to take your advice on, however I would be grateful for any immediate advice as to what my next steps should be.

moved to legals

please complete this:

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?419198-You-have-received-a-Claim-What-you-need-to-do.-**UPDATED-2016**(1-Viewing)-nbsp

Name of the Claimant ? Arrow Global Limited

Date of issue: 15 SEP 2017.

Time line: Date of issue - 15 September 2017 - Acknowledgement - 3 October 2017 - Defence - 17 October 2017.

What is the claim for –

1.The claimant claims payment of the overdue balance due from the Defendant(s) under a contract between the Defendant (s) and HSBC dated on or about April 15 1988 and assigned to the Claimant on May 13 2011

2.Particulars ac no - xxxx/xxxxxxxx

DATE ITEM VALUE

04/08/2017 Default Balance 499.99

Post Refri Cr NIL

TOTAL £499.99

What is the value of the claim? £575. 02

Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? Overdraft

When did you enter into the original agreement before or after 2007? Before 2007

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor

or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. ARROW

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? NO and had never heard of the company or their solicitors prior to the 15th of August 2007 when I received what perceived to be a phishing letter claiming that the debt was assigned to them and they were putting in the hands of their solicitors unless the received immediate payment.

Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? I honestly cannot remember but I do not believe so.

Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Default sums” – at least once a year ? NO - never received a single statement ever!

Why did you cease payments? I didn't; they stopped collecting my payments

What was the date of your last payment? Some time in 2011

Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? NO - other than I made it clear that I thought they had acted unreasonably and would seek legal redress if I was ever in a position to do so.

Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management planicon? I explained my financial position but did not enter into any debt management agreement.

could your last payment have been before sept 2011?

if you don't know go ring HSBC and ask

I tried ringing HSBC and was just given the run around.

They are unhelpful people and then there are HSBC.

I need to submit in writing to the people who were excepting the payments ( who I cannot remember )

They are unable to provide me with any information about the account (not even the debt collector) unless I first go to a HSBC with my passport or Driving License and they can establish my identity.

The branch I go to with my identity will not be able to provide me with the information I require,

but will pass my request to them and then they will write to me and I can submit my request direct by way of a written response.

Something I do not understand is the following.

I have never heard of Arrow and would not have entered into any agreement with them or anybody else other than the original creditor.

I have never made any payments in favour of Arrow ever and they purchased the debt in May 2011 so why doesn't the SB apply.

If I borrow from A and he decides to sell my debt to B surely their interest in the debt ends as they are no longer the owner of the debt.

B now says to me I own your debt but I in my ignorance having no knowledge of the sale of my debt by A to B carried on paying A was there not a duty by A to inform me that they had sold the debt and therefore could not accept the money and returned it to me?

I have downloaded the CPR31.14 but do not have a case number only a claim number.

I have acknowledged the receipt of the claim online but didn't see any mention of a case number can I still send this without a case number?

I think you need to read about Assignment of Debts and Notice of Assignment...Arrow are now the Legal owner of the debt and as such you become their debtor.

Andy

if they bought the debt in may 2011

then its statute barred as you've never paid them only ever paid HSBC

as for the CPR 31:14 use the claim form number

I have never paid anyone other than HSBC or as I have now found out probably their in house collection arm MCS.

Interestingly I understand the OFT stepped in and told them to clean their act up and stop pretending that MCS were a seperate company.

If what you are saying is true then it would definitely be SB because I have never had any dealings whatsoever with Arrow.

But I cannot be absolutely sure that I didn't pay HSBC or MCS after the date of 13 may 2011.

Sorry to be a PITA but I don't have the foggiest when it comes to legal stuff. I think the following covers everything I should be asking for in the CPR31.14 but would appreciate a second opinion.

1: the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

2: Notice of Assignment

3: The Default Notice

4: Statement of Account

wrong cpr 31:14 you want the current account one

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?387483-LEGAL-CPR-31.14-Request-when-Claim-is-being-made-for-a-Current-Account

hadagutsfull

as has been discussed on thread, your o/d is prior to feb 2011 and would be re a 'facility confirmation'. so there wldn't be the formal o/d agreement terms as per s61b, unless there was a significant rearrangement since.

you need to do the o/d cpr linked.

also, for general reference, oddly an o/d credit agreement (required for o/d's after 2011) doesn't need to be signed like a credit card one for eg (despite since being statutorily classified as a credit agreement). it is merely a duty to provide a copy of the o/d credit terms.

good luck.

Damn.

Have I dropped a booby?

I'm new to all this and didn't question using CPR 31.14 because I don't know enough about it, however I was talking to a friend today about my problem and later he telephoned me and said he had done some research online and thought I should have used CPR18.

Is he right?

I don't have clue.

If it is the case how do I overcome it now that I have sent the 31.14?

para 35 above at this stage CPR31.14

Your claim will be small claims track...CPR 18 is not applicable to small claims track.

Think I'd follow cag threads and our tried and test methods eh?

Think I'd follow cag threads and our tried and test methods eh?

Which is exactly what I've done. But thought I had better run it past you in case I hadn't understood something.

Now the attached from Restons in reply to my recent CPR 31.14 request.

I'm not sure what to do next and would be grateful for any advice forum members are able to offer.

I feel I should go down the statute barred route but think I would need to confirm the following if it's to succeed.

1. The fact that new creditor have been able to make a claim means that the debt has been sold and legally assigned to them.

2. The original creditor has no ownership and retains no interest in the debt once it is assigned.

3. Payments paid to the original creditor after the date of assignment through ignorance of the debt having been assigned cannot be construed as payments to or contact with the new creditor.

I have receipts which clearly show they were paid to the original creditor.

4. How long after the assignment before the statutory period begins.

A lot of questions I know but I'm a novice at all this and find myself groping around for answers.

It seems to me that lowlifes can make a claim,

do not have to prove they own it or how they arrive at the figure they are claiming.

HSBC have behaved abominably from the very start when they pulled the rung out from under me.

Now it seems I'm dealing with an even lower life form who can pump me for cash by raising the stakes.

Redacted Reston letter.pdf

So you've not seen that letter before on other reston claim form threads?

Willy waving std response which you ignore

SB runs from your last payment toward the OD regardless to whom you sent it too

Earlier in the thread you said that the debt would be statute barred because I had only ever paid HSBC and not Arrow is that no longer your opinion?

Is it not the case that if you received money for a debt that you no longer owned because you have sold it you should return the money to the sender.

Am I to understand that a debt purchaser could pay somebody to pay something towards the debt they owned and that way the debt would never become statute barred?

I have absolutely no idea whether the payments I have made after the date of the assignment and sent to the original creditor have been passed on or pocketed.

I have seen the letter on other threads but posted it because on those other threads it seems to have resulted in further advice as to what to do next as well as saying ignore it.

Again just like Andy pointed to in post 31 you appear to be assuming things that people are saying means something else.

You need to get reading or get the data from HSBC

If the payments were not returned by HSBC after assignment then where did they go, I suspect to the debt buyer...this claimant

But this is why you need to prove things

HSBC under the prevention of fraud act

And the data protection act

MUST hold data for 6yrs

Crack that nut and it might well be statute barred

Easy win

22nd was the last update on HSBC data

Its now the 2nd Oct...

Go hit HSBC hard demand the info

I would appreciate advice on how to submit a defence based on the fact that I am unable to defend myself aqainst the claim as the claimant has not provided me with the information requested in the CPR 31.14 while also stating that I beleve the caim to be statute barred.

I have telephoned HSBC who are unable or unwilling to help and also submitted a SAR

but the feedback that I am getting is this is unlikey to be forthcoming before I need to submit my defence.

I believe that caggers call it an embarrassed defence and don't have alot of time for them but I cannot think of any other option unless I fold.

like any other thread here whereby cpr doesn't arrive

you file the holding / no paperwork defence

on 1000's of threads here in the very forum your thread is

the fact that it might be SB'd can poss be introduced at WS stage IF it gets that far!!

just today [well yesterday] theres a perfect defence on another HSBC claimform thread that's been posted here.

Post #69 in the following thread I assume DX refers to.....

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?480976-Arrow-Restons-claimform-HSBC-1st-direct-OD-Managed-Loan-debt/page4

I found another of Andy's creations and thought it would better serve my purposes.

It is from a much older thread and I don't know if the legal stuff still applies perhaps someone would be so kind as to double check it for me.

I would use the more recent one but I am not able to sift out what applies to the loan and what applies to the overdraft

(but I guess it was written with that very purpose in mind).

Any suggestions as to anything I should add or omit gratefully received. Particulars of Claim

1. The Claimant claims payment of the overdue balance due from the Defendant(s) under a contract between the Defendant(s) and HSBC Bank dated on or about [redacted]

2. And assigned to the Claimant on [redacted] 2011.

Particulars a/c [redacted]

DATE - [redacted] 2017

ITEM - Default Balance

VALUE - £[redacted]

Post Refrl Cr - NIL

TOTAL - £[redacted]

1. The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are vague and generic in nature.

The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.

2. Paragraph 1 is noted. I have had an Account in the past with HSBC. However I am unaware of any legal assignment or Notice of Assignment allegedly served with regards to Arrow Global Limited.

3. It is therefore denied with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant,

the Claimant has failed to provide any evidence of assignment/balance/breach requested by CPR 31. 14,

Therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to:

(a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement with the Claimant; and

(b) show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for; and

© show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim;

4. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

5. On receipt of the claim form the Defendant sent a formal CPR 31.14 request dated [redacted] 2017 for a copy of the overdraft facility agreement, Notice served under Sections 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974, notice of assignment and a statement of account showing how the amount claimed has been reached, which form the basis of this claim.

As per the County Claim forms directions this request was addressed to Restons Solicitors Limited and acknowledged in writing [redacted]2017. However, the claimants representative has dismissed any obligation to provide requested documents and has yet to comply.

Therefore the claimant in their none compliance to my requests have frustrated my attempts to clarify their claim and against pre action protocol should be considered when the question of costs arise.

6. On the alternative, if the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974.

7. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

We can sharpen it a bit more..will take a further look tomorrow.

Andy