Hi a quick question please.

I waited in an ncp station car park when collecting someone from a station.

didn't get out of the car but unfortunately my passenger was delayed as his coach broke down

was there about 20 mins or perhaps a bit longer.

didn't buy a ticket as I was just waiting in what I thought was a safe place.

could just have easily waited on the street as it was in the evening.

was shocked to receive a ticket by ANPR recording me arriving and leaving the car park.

appealed but it was rejected

have to pay £60 (rising to £100 if I delay payment for any reason including appealing to POPLA).

I was wondering whether there are views as to whether it's worth appealing.

I didn't see any signs about waiting but admit I was in their car park

in their rejection of my appeal they say I was using the facilities and they have a 10 min grace period which is apparently stated at the exit and entrance.

Would appreciate people's advice/suggestions. Thanks

was it a station car park that was clearly railway land?

If so then it is not "relevant land" as far as the POFA goes

as you have already appealed presumably you said the same as above and thus identified yourself as the driver the parking co know who to chase anyway.

If you hadnt appealed we would have advised you to tell them that there is no keeper liability in this matter and to get lost

now it is all down to contract law and what was offered by way of the signs and the right of the parking co to make that offer.

If railway land they probably cant enforce the contract as the land is covered by railway byelaws.

This menas the railway may seek to prosecute you

if they do they and the parking co get none of the money

they like to pretend the law doesnt count and you do have to pay when you dont.

Tell us exactly where the event took place and we will try and help you further.

It is likely that it is railway land and there can be no performance of the contract by the parking co

- inshort they have no right to offer you a contract so cant enforce it.

Thank you for your reply. It was at Hillingdon underground station. I am not sure if it is railway land although it is at the station. I am going away on Thurs so need to make a decision whether to pay quickly. Very grateful for your input.

Hillingdon is London Underground, isn't it? I don't know if the rules are different for tube stations.

HB

Yes it is an underground station

Any more advice on whether I need to pay this now it's clear it's an underground station?

no you never blindly pay a speculative invoice.

can you complete this please:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket

Date of infringement: 29/6/17

Date of NTK: Posted 6/7/17

date notice given 10/7/17

Date received: not sure but before 14/717

Does it mention schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012? No

Photographic evidence: one photo of my car entering with date and time below but printed so small I can't read it even with my glasses on!

Have you appealed? Yes. Sorry I can't post it as I don't have a copy but I did admit I was there in the carpark just waiting to pick up my son whose coach broke down and was delayed as had to wait longer than promised. It was around 8pm and I could've waited in street for free. But I thought this was a safer place to wait. I never got out of the car and didn't see notices.

Did you get a reply? Yes by email.

Here it is :

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding the above notice number.

We have considered the case carefully and have decided to reject your appeal on the following grounds;

The Automatic Number Plate Recognition service has recorded that the parking session for your vehicle was not paid for within the stipulated time.

It is the responsibility of all motorists to ensure that when they enter a car park that they have understood the terms and conditions of signage at the site and anticipated any potential delays.

You have stated that your vehicle was not parked as you did not leave it;

however, for the period that the vehicle remained on site,

you were making use of the facilities provided by NCP

and as the vehicle was on site for a period longer than the stipulated 10 minute grace period a parking session fee was due.

The Terms and Conditions of which our services are provided are clearly displayed on entrance and throughout our facilities, including the requirement for motorists to ensure valid payment is made within the stipulated time.

We are confident that all signage and the PCN are compliant with all industry standards and to the British Parking Association's code of practice to which we subscribe.

You now have the following options;

Pay the Parking Charge Notice at the discounted amount of £60.00 within 14 days. Please note that after this time the Parking Charge Notice will increase to the full charge of £100.00.

Payment can be made etc

Who is the parking company? NCP

Where exactly? Hillingdon London Underground Stn

Appeals body: POPLA

Thanks again.

Hi, any advice re the above? Thanks

Here is the full text of the rejection of my (ill considered!) appeal.

Schoolgirl error to have done that I now realise.

I am also attempting to upload the redacted original ntk

Dear Ms xxxx

Re: xxxxx issued at Hillingdon LU Stn (ANPR) on 29 June 2017 to vehicle with registration mark xxxxxxx

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding the above notice number.

We have considered the case carefully and have decided to reject your appeal on the following grounds;

The Automatic Number Plate Recognition service has recorded that the parking session for your vehicle was not paid for within the stipulated time.

It is the responsibility of all motorists to ensure that when they enter a car park that they have understood the terms and conditions of signage at the site and anticipated any potential delays.

You have stated that your vehicle was not parked as you did not leave it;

however, for the period that the vehicle remained on site,

you were making use of the facilities provided by NCP and as the vehicle was on site for a period longer than the stipulated 10 minute grace period a parking session fee was due.

The Terms and Conditions of which our services are provided are clearly displayed on entrance and throughout our facilities, including the requirement for motorists to ensure valid payment is made within the stipulated time.

We are confident that all signage and the PCN are compliant with all industry standards and to the British Parking Association's code of practice to which we subscribe.

You now have the following options;

Pay the Parking Charge Notice at the discounted amount of £60.00 within 14 days.

Please note that after this time the Parking Charge Notice will increase to the full charge of £100.00. Payment can be made: * Online, by visiting https://www.ncp.co.uk/pcn * By sending a cheque or postal order, made payable to National Car Parks Ltd to: National Car Parks Ltd. Notice Processing, PO Box 839, Northampton, NN4 4AL. * By Debit or Credit card (except American Express). Please call 0330 088 2902 and have your card details and the information held in this letter to hand.

Alternatively, you can make an appeal to POPLA - The Independent Appeals Service.

If you wish to make an appeal to POPLA the forms are available on the website at www.popla.co.uk. The verification code you will need in order to appeal to the Independent Appeals Service is 4....

Please note that if you opt for independent arbitration of your case you will lose your opportunity to pay the discounted offer and the full amount of the parking charge will apply.

Your appeal to POPLA must be made within 28 days of the date of this letter, any appeals to POPLA made after the 28 days will not be assessed.

The independent adjudicator is unable to waive the parking notice because of mitigating circumstances and a decision will be based on facts and evidence only.

If you have any trouble in appealing or cannot access the website please contact us on 01604 625 622. By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (www.ombudsman-services.org/) provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal.

However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.

If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.

Yours sincerely, Notice Processing Team National Car Parks

Hillingdon station parking charge notice.pdf

you've left you name on the letter

now hidden letter

NTK now irrelevant as you identified yourself as the driver.

POFA also irrelevant so no point mentioning any part of it any more.

you need to find out who owns the land and whether it is covered by byelaws as most of railway land and LU/TfL sites would be.

Siting and wording of signage will also be useful.

I took some photos of the signage but can't seem to upload them. Is it because they are jpg files and if so how do I convert them?!

Am trying to find out who owns the land.

It's particularly annoying as I could have parked right outside the entrance to the station for free at that time of night!!!

Click upload

One multipage PDF please

Thanks. Hope this is helpful.

scan hillingdon stn terms and conditions.pdf

Can you read those???

Sorry the scan version doesn't seem to be expandable but I have the photos on my phone and can zoom in. Also terms and conditions are apparently on their website. The other info I have is that I believe the land there is owned by TFL and managed by NCP

Pop them all into a multipage PDF and click upload

the sign is not a contract,

it says charges apply but doesnt have a tariff of charges,

the instructuions for payment are vague or confusing as they say pay by NCP approved methods

- well how the hell are you supposed to know what they are unless they are on the sign?

In short, it is "an invitation to treat" at best and more likely an unenforceable contract as it fails to have the necessary detail of offer for your consideration.

As for the charges of £60/100,

well they would need a contract with TfL that allows this and that would mean that somehow the land isnt covered by byelaws which it most certainly would be.

Byelaw 14 applies and if you read 14(3) or 14(4) then you may be fined for parking in a fee paying area without paying that fee.

Now reading the sign the fee for parking is £60 but there is no penalty charge and they are not the same.

The byelaw would allow a fine of level 3 to be levied if you were found guilty of the offence but you havent been charged with anything and NCP have no authority other than to report you to TfL.

Likewise the interpretation of Operator is limited and appears to exclude NCP as they dont operate the station, track etc.

You have to take the meaning of the words as they are commonly used.

It is likey that NCP will tell you they have these rights because as they understand them they were given a lucrative contract and they want to make hay.

This is where other parking co's have failed miserably in the past when pursuing such claims,

they cant show the authority as the byelaws trump their contract and tbh no-one is interested in taking you to court as the money goes to central govy, not TfL or the parking co.

If you hadnt replied to their NTK you would be home and dry now as they could only chase the driver, not the keeper ( not "relevant land").

What to do? wait.

Wait to see what they decide to send out next,

As said their sign is too rubbish to be a contract,

they will have to prove that their contract overrides the Act of Parliament that allows Tfl to do anything

and that is never going to be the case unless you get a letter from TfL threatening prosecution there is little that they can do.

Even then the arguments will be similar,

it is all down to the sigange being clear enough to allow you to make an informed decision and whether the vague bit about paying £60 fulfils the requirements of 14(4)

Also you can argue that the ANPR is outside the law in this case the wording of the byelaw specifically says "authorised person at that place".

No one was there

Thank you so so much!! Will keep waiting till I hear again.

Hi

I have now received a letter from ZZPS saying I now owe £160 to include late payment and debt recovery charges.

They mention the famous Beavis case.

I will attach redacted letter.

I know usually you say ignore these letters but as I did (foolishly) respond once it seems that there may be different advice for this.

Sorry but I do want to be sure!

HILLINGDON STN DEBT RECOVERY LETTER.pdf

so you've not been reading what we've said nor other like threads?

dx

ask yourself this,

what legal reason is there for a company you have no contractual relationship with to ask you for £160?

If the parking charge was £100 why is another company demanding £160?

have you signed a credit agreement with them?

Have you taken the trouble to read anything about these bandits you would have realised that dca's have no right to demand anything and cannot add a fee or other amount to the original sum

they do because the are dishonest and think that the public is generally stupid enough to pay up without demur.

The problem is for us that in more than 50% of the cases the public is as stupid as they give them credit for so stay in business.

if everyone reported that to the FCA for unlicenced deposit taking they would be in the bankruptcy hearing as we sit here.

DCA's have no interest in anything ever,

they get paid to write scary letters that mention irrelevant case law as a catch all when they dont understand it anyway.

As I didnt mention the Beavis case by name you only owe me £110,

does that make you feel that mydemand is more or less realistic?

OK I get it.

Received another letter from ZZPS saying their next course of action is to refer to solicitors but "they would prefer to get to the bottom of this" without that.

I'm proceeding on the basis that this is an attempt to scare me as from what I've read here and elsewhere zzps have no powers

to be honest, some of the things I've read suggest some contradictory action which is why I am feeling somewhat unsure.

I realise that zzps have no right to demand anything especially the extra charges they continue to add .

ZZPS cannot refer anything to anyone,

they don't have any interest in anything.

You have to read the letter properly as you are currently failing to do so.

Go through it word by word and don't assume anything.

I bet they say they are referring the matter back to their client with a recommendation.

Well, I recommend you use Sudso soap for whiter whites but that doesn't mean can sue you if you don't

They state "our next course of action is to pass this account to our client's Solicitors [their misplaced capital letters]. We would prefer to get to the bottom of this with you....will attach copy when I can get to a desktop