Hi Everyone,

I had parked on a single yellow line on a Sunday afternoon in a street in Greenwich in Jan 2017. I was given a ticket for this. I had appealed / challenged the fine on 23.1.2017. I had no response from the Parking Fines office till 14.7.2017 rejecting my challenge and asking me to pay. I have two questions.

1. What is the time limit within which a Parking fine Challenge/ Appeal should be responded? In my case it was 5 months and 2 weeks.

2. What is the rule for displaying parking restriction sign posts in any restricted area? Within how many metres should a sign be put and be visible in the area? In my case there are no sign posts within 100 metres from where I parked.

3. Should I take photos/ videos of the street with no visible restriction sign posts for my next Appeal?

Please can someone answer. I shall be grateful for your guidance.

Many Thanks.

probe

Is this the local authority ?.

Yes , Royal Greenwich Borough Council.

Thanks for response.

1. There is no statutory period within which the council must reply to an informal challenge. They have 56 days to reply to formal representations to the Notice to Owner, which is what you will receive next if you don't pay the discounted amount.

2. Signs for a CPZ are only required at the entry points to the CPZ, and are not required in streets within the zone.

The whole of Greenwich, being a popular tourist area, is a CPZ Mon-Sun.

Isn't there a rule about how long the Council has before it issues the first NTO against a PCN? I thought that was 56 days, but I'm not certain of that.

Isn't there a rule about how long the Council has before it issues the first NTO against a PCN? I thought that was 56 days, but I'm not certain of that.

Good point, it's 6 months, but it's already at 5.5 months.

So the OP has a dilemma, pay the discount now on the basis that he is bang to rights with no real grounds for appeal or wait for the NTO in the hope that it's issued after the 6 month cut off and that an adjudicator allows an appeal on that basis.

When they rejected the informal appeal, they should have given 14 days to pay.

So, in post 1: "I had appealed / challenged the fine on 23.1.2017" - The PCN can't have been issued any later than that - so the NTO has to be served no later than 23.7.2017, ie yesterday?

He says "I had no response from the Parking Fines office till 14.7.2017" - if that's the date on their letter, then they won't issue an NTO for 14 more days, meaning when it comes along it will be dated 28.7.2017.

Therefore, the NTO has not yet been served and when it is, it will be more than six months old, and unenforceable.

Thanks everyone for the information as above.

Please excuse my ignorance but what is NTO?

Yes, in their response dated 14.7.17 to my Appeal it has given me 14 days to pay or Re- challenge / Appeal to the independent body.

Is this letter the NTO or is it different?

Notice to Owner, which will be clearly headed as such.

From what you have said the letter you have is merely their rejection to your informal challenge. It should mention that the next letter will be the NTO.

An NTO - Notice to Owner - is a document which establishes legal liability for a PCN. It's a formal document which is posted out. When you get it, it will ask you to pay the full amount or lodge formal representations.

The Council can issue more than one for the same PCN, for instance, if a person receives one and then advises the Council that someone else owns the vehicle, they can issue a second one to the correct person, and so on.

However the first one has to be issued within six months of the PCN. You can expect to receive one, and I guess there's no reason to think this is not the first one issued for this PCN?

As it's more than six months since the PCN, you would have grounds to have the charge cancelled.

Thanks everyone.

I have had a look and it appears that they sent me an NTO on 5.6.17 and I appealed again against it. They have sent a rejection letter dated 14.7.17 in response to the second Appeal. So iI guess, I better go ahead and pay rather than contest any further. They have accepted to pay only the initial PCN fine of £65.

Hi Everyone,

I have been away for a while. Thank you all for your suggestions in my matter. I have paid the fine on time.

Still I would like to raise the issue of the Borough Council using this spot as a money making corridor. Whenever I went round this street to see for evidence in my support, I used to see 2 - 3 vehicles parked there and stuck with the Parking Fine notice on the windscreen. So I feel that there is something that is not evident or clear to passengers in the area and they fall prey to the Fines. Some smart Parking Inspector and the Borough Council is making easy money and bonus for themselves from this street.

Is there anything that can be done for this to be challenged? Something like a PIL from the Forum or a RTI as to how much fines are collected from this street and why?

Just a thought ....

Best Wishes to All.

People seem to think driving is an entitlement and make little effort other than that required to pass the test to understand the ins and outs of traffic law.

If I had a quid for every person that has told me single yellows don't apply on Sunday, after 6pm, 6.30pm, 7pm etc I'd be rich, some drivers have told me they thought the yellow plate was when you COULD park.

Theres a bay near me that is loading only in the day and disabled overnight,

its clear as day if you take time to read the sign

but like you each time I walk past a PCN has been issued, I just laugh at peoples stupidity.

From years working in parking and on here I can tell you most tickets are issued due to peoples ignorance and not council dodgy dealings.

Thanks again.

Yes I agree that most fines are due to Drivers' ignorance.

But at the same time there have been many evidences where it has been clear that the Boroughs and Councils deliberately make such blind spots to earn money.

I strongly feel this street, Norman Street /Road in Greenwich, is one of them.

Surely they can put up more prominent signs along the street to make people aware, specially when they see that so many Drivers are fined from that one street.

It becomes their moral duty to come clean, display better and create awareness when citizens are making same mistakes. Rather than sit quietly and enjoy the fun and the money.

There are no signs along the whole street / road, neither at the entrance.

It will just cost them a very tiny percentage of the money they collect from fines to put up more sign boards along the road.

Please can someone advise me how to submit a 'Right to Information' application to the Borough?

I assume you mean a Freedom of Information request:

https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/official-information/

http://www.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/info/722/freedom_of_information/795/make_a_freedom_of_information_request

Thanks again.

 

Yes I agree that most fines are due to Drivers' ignorance.

But at the same time there have been many evidences where it has been clear that the Boroughs and Councils deliberately make such blind spots to earn money.

 

 

I strongly feel this street, Norman Street /Road in Greenwich, is one of them.

Surely they can put up more prominent signs along the street to make people aware, specially when they see that so many Drivers are fined from that one street.

 

 

It becomes their moral duty to come clean, display better and create awareness when citizens are making same mistakes. Rather than sit quietly and enjoy the fun and the money.

 

 

There are no signs along the whole street / road, neither at the entrance.

It will just cost them a very tiny percentage of the money they collect from fines to put up more sign boards along the road.

 

Please can someone advise me how to submit a 'Right to Information' application to the Borough?

I can understand why it will look this way, but I honestly don't think the Council are trying to trick anyone. Remember they aren't a business, and there are no shareholders enjoying the money. It is all in the public purse - if anyone 'enjoys' it, it is the people who live in the area, rather than the people working for the council.

Why don't they erect bigger, clearer signs? Probably because they are constrained by 1. regulations as to sign design and sizes, and 2. pressure from complaining residents who don't like unnecessary signs going up in their streets.

As for your Right to Information / Freedom of Information request - what for? You will ask them questions, like how many PCNs they issue, how much money they generate etc, and they will tell you. Seems pretty futile to me.

perhpas the OP means the Traffic Order that applies to this street? You simply ask them for a copy, they will send it to you or direct you to where it can be found in their web site or portal. I would surmise that it is one of the many controlled parking zones that councils use so the signage wouldnt necessarily have to be on that particular street. I agree that they can be confusing, especially around places like football stadia but quite often the lack of other parking there should warn you to be on the lookout for relevat signage just around the corner. I tend to go and look for the end of the marked line if no signs in the street.

Thanks again everyone. Good points and messages.

In response - that is what I have said that he Borough earns from that spot and should re-invest to put more normal small signs along the street on the lamp posts as in other places. Not big posters.

I had been up to 100 meteres on both sides along the street and there are NO Signs at all. Not even the small 'Parking restriction timings' on the lamp posts or elsewhere nor around the corner.

Yes I think it is Freedom of Information. Sorry for the confused term. I think it will only raise awareness and some eyebrows in the Borough when they have to tell how much money they earn as PCN fines from this spot and why so. Then may be pass it on to BBC. I will look at the cost : benefit ratio of the effort to see if it will be worth trying.