The confidence of winning is not diminished. The question you asked – or I thought you asked was whether they would be allowed to appeal.

They have been refused leave to appeal in the lower court. Now they have to asked for leave to appeal in the upper court. It's difficult to say whether they may be granted leave. If they are granted leave to appeal then they will have to do mount their appeal which will be another stage in the proceedings.

I don't think you need to feel negative about anything at the moment.

Clarification for you:

Para 1 - I'm with you on that. To me it seems like they are still arguing something about glass content, that was clearly judged as not affected the rest of the item damage and as such was disregarded.

Para 3 - Again. To me it seems like they are now trying to discredit the witnesses as well as me. At the end of the day the recipients witness statement was extremely clear, the judge accepted it, it was well written and written to clarify in the face of the defendant twisting his words, to be clear on his opinion. He also stated in the witness statement that he gets packages all the time that may not have damage on the box, but are damaged inside and the judge also accepted this statement as very reasonable.

There's a pattern here is there not! Discredit me, discredit the judge, the witnesses, the system.

What I need to know now is did the judge actually consider the point about the glass content during the trial or in his judgement?

On the point of the witnesses, did the judge comment on the witness statements and announce what his view of them was? Very important, did the defendant raise objections to the witness statement during the hearing and if so what were those objections and how did the judge respond to those objections?

You need to understand that at this point the application for leave to appeal is procedural - the purpose is not to examine the evidence.

In terms of the pattern which you say you discern, discrediting you is a jolly good idea. Discrediting the judges unwise. Discrediting the witnesses is also a good idea. Discrediting the system is unwise

I'm not sure where you are – and I hope that you are not going to drop out again. I think that it is quite urgent that you frame your response and send it in.

In the meantime, without any further information from you, the best response for number one would be – it is not correct that the judge disregarded the terms of the contract. The terms of the contract were fully discussed and indeed referred to in the judgement. The district judge gave the terms full regard and his decision was made with them in mind.

I'm still not at all clear as to what they mean by their point number three. Are they talking about your independent witnesses or their own independent witnesses. Are they talking about the return of the parcel after it had been damaged and delivered to the addressee? Or something else?

It would be really helpful if you come back deal with these points please

Hi there

I had to leave at 5.30 pm yesterday. I have a lot on my plate right now but we will be dropping off a letter today at the courts.

Answers to the outstanding questions:

What I need to know now is did the judge actually consider the point about the glass content during the trial or in his judgement?

Yes, it was considered for a long time and was discussed at length and a decision was made on it which was the right one.

We went through the defendants contract and terms, we actually used my copy as his was a mess. He even brought up my businesses contract up which was dismissed quickly as it was irrelevant. the point is the terms and the contract was brought up a lot.

On the point of the witnesses, did the judge comment on the witness statements and announce what his view of them was? Very important, did the defendant raise objections to the witness statement during the hearing and if so what were those objections and how did the judge respond to those objections?

Yes he did. He did say that in all cases he likes to actually see the witness appear in court to read them out, however he said at the end in the judgement that he accepted the witness statement in question and that he had no reason to not believe me and the witness.

You need to understand that at this point the application for leave to appeal is procedural - the purpose is not to examine the evidence.

I don't understand what you mean?

In terms of the pattern which you say you discern, discrediting you is a jolly good idea. Discrediting the judges unwise. Discrediting the witnesses is also a good idea. Discrediting the system is unwise

So just steer clear of saying anything about the judge or system being discredited?

Point 3

I think this was the witness who received the parcel. I do not understand what they can have an issue with about the statement. It was clear, he made his points and that was that. He did confirm in the statement that the parcels were damaged on the outward leg to him, he also had emails to this effect. What the witness statement cleared up were emails from me to him being taken out of context. IE an email to me stated that the p[arcel did not seem damaged. However he purely meant that in astonishment at the fact the box seemed OK, but inside was not. his witness statement cleared all of this up.

The case ran on from its original 1.5 hour slot to nearly 4 hours. I cannot see what stone was not turned over.

Please go back to page 5 of this thread where you will see that I have completed most of the grounds of appeal – with one question. Also there is a question below

Hi there

 

I had to leave at 5.30 pm yesterday. I have a lot on my plate right now but we will be dropping off a letter today at the courts.

 

Answers to the outstanding questions:

 

What I need to know now is did the judge actually consider the point about the glass content during the trial or in his judgement?

Yes, it was considered for a long time and was discussed at length and a decision was made on it which was the right one.

 

We went through the defendants contract and terms, we actually used my copy as his was a mess. He even brought up my businesses contract up which was dismissed quickly as it was irrelevant. the point is the terms and the contract was brought up a lot.

very good. In that case please use the text which I have just inserted into the proposed response to replace the question I asked you marked in red

 

On the point of the witnesses, did the judge comment on the witness statements and announce what his view of them was? Very important, did the defendant raise objections to the witness statement during the hearing and if so what were those objections and how did the judge respond to those objections?

Yes he did. He did say that in all cases he likes to actually see the witness appear in court to read them out, however he said at the end in the judgement that he accepted the witness statement in question and that he had no reason to not believe me and the witness.

Please have a look at the sentence which I have just inserted this point to replace my question previously marked in red on the proposed draft responses. Also, I have included another sentence and given you a question in red

You need to understand that at this point the application for leave to appeal is procedural - the purpose is not to examine the evidence.

I don't understand what you mean?

 

This is simply a request to be allowed to appeal because the district judge has refused them leave to appeal. This is not the appeal. The higher court – the appeal court – will simply consider whether the judge has made some administrative error in the way that he handled the evidence. If they decide that he did make an error then they will allow the defendant to appeal. At that point the appeal judge will hear the evidence and hear any representations from you. At this point, the appeal court is simply examining the procedure which was used in order to understand if there might have been some mistake made by the judge that they need to look at again in order to decide who was in the right. This is why the responses to their application are simply attempting to say – yes the judge did look at this, he did take it into account. He didn't overlook any steps in arriving at his judgement.

 

In terms of the pattern which you say you discern, discrediting you is a jolly good idea. Discrediting the judges unwise. Discrediting the witnesses is also a good idea. Discrediting the system is unwise

So just steer clear of saying anything about the judge or system being discredited?

 

Absolutely. Don't allow the case to get snidey

Point 3

I think this was the witness who received the parcel. I do not understand what they can have an issue with about the statement. It was clear, he made his points and that was that. He did confirm in the statement that the parcels were damaged on the outward leg to him, he also had emails to this effect. What the witness statement cleared up were emails from me to him being taken out of context. IE an email to me stated that the p[arcel did not seem damaged. However he purely meant that in astonishment at the fact the box seemed OK, but inside was not. his witness statement cleared all of this up.

 

The case ran on from its original 1.5 hour slot to nearly 4 hours. I cannot see what stone was not turned over.

 

I'm sorry but I'm losing track, you talking about "the witness" who receive the parcel but I'm not sure who this is. Is this the original addressee?

Yes the witness in question here was the chap who was receiving both the parcels that were damaged. I had 3 witness statements. 1 from the recipient of the parcels, 1 from an expert who covered off that the items were not repairable and no longer available and 1 was a character witness form an employee who clarified that I had not changed my details (which was being claimed by the defendants in one of their witness statements). So the witness in question here has to be the recipient of the parcel.

Okay and presumably the recipient provided a statement or gave evidence and that was considered by the judge and he commented on it and it was referred to in the judgement?????

Hi There

Sorry I have been in meetings all day today. Been hard to focus on this.

Okay and presumably the recipient provided a statement or gave evidence and that was considered by the judge and he commented on it and it was referred to in the judgement?????

Yes, exactly right. From my side it was very simple. I argued the mishandling. I got witnesses for everything I needed, I also had a bunch of my own evidence. The defendants simply tried to discredit me and focus on unfair terms to weadle out of paying, rather than address the reasons they should not pay. This was actually acknowledged by the judge in the summary.

Now they want a 2nd stab at it and I personally think they are just doing this out of spite to delay paying or something like that.

I have just dropped off the letter at the court as I was in town just now anyway and have included everything in that so lets hope the courts see sense and do not allow this continue any further.

TY very much as always.

Now they want a 2nd stab at it and I personally think they are just doing this out of spite to delay paying or something like that.

What was the judgment? (Was it payment 'forthwith', or by a set date)?.

The can 'delay paying' if they get the judgment set-aside, or win an appeal.

They can't 'delay paying' based on seeking permission to appeal, only an appeal itself, so dependent on the terms of the judgment, you should be looking to enforce the judgment.

However, keep the judgment sum aside if you think the case might go to appeal ; only consider it 'yours' once the case is finally concluded. That shouldn't prevent you enforcing the judgment in the meantime though!.

Although they have lodged an appeal and ticked for a stay of execution of the judgment, until their application has been dealt with and a decision made the judgment remains live and can be enforced. I've not read all the thread but their application for permission to appeal looks rather poor to me. Depending what the judgment said about payment I think I'd have put the pressure back on them and started the ball rolling with enforcement, preferably HCEO if it's above the threashold.

Hi There

Sorry for the delay getting back to you, I had a few things I had to deal with yesterday. So firstly I got the attached letter through the post today. I am struggling to work out exactly what it means if i'm being perfectly honest!! Any help on this would be appreciated.

Answers to outstanding questions:

What was the judgment? (Was it payment 'forthwith', or by a set date)?.

The judge gave them a date to pay and actually made a point to recommend they paid by that date. He gave them a number of days to pay and I received a letter stating they should pa by the 15th November. However on the first appeal document I received (The one before the one attached in this post and above) they seem to have ticked a box asking to not pay right now, stating that they do not believe they would get the money back from me if their appeal goes through.

Depending what the judgment said about payment I think I'd have put the pressure back on them and started the ball rolling with enforcement, preferably HCEO if it's above the threashold.

Can you tell me what HCEO means?

Also are you saying that I should just go on and enforce payment, IE treat this as they simply did not pay and to go to the next stage? I am worried though that I lose my appeal here and then I have paid an extra £200 getting bailiffs etc to attend or something like that? Can you tell me how best do i do this?

Appeal2_Redacted.pdf

So I just rang the courts, I was put through to an "enforcement" team, who have explicitly told me if an appeal has indeed applied for a "stay of execution", then I cannot proceed with enforcement. In the "Appelants Notice" document they have applied for a stay of execution in section 7, part A, with the reason:

"Should the judgement monies be paid over they may not be capable of being recovered from the claimant company"

So I guess that we can't proceed. Is that right?

I wouldn't have advised you to enforce the judgement anyway once you became aware of an appeal.

However, what I would have suggested to you as a final part of your grounds of appeal would have been to asked the judge to order them to pay the money into court as a condition of being given leave to appeal – if indeed they were given leave. This would have made things much less complicated view to enforce in the event that you eventually win.

I'm afraid that you seem to have a habit of rushing off before the documents are properly completed and so you don't really do the best for yourself.

HCEO means the High Court enforcement officer – which is far more powerful than a County Court bailiff.

I'll have a look at the document and add to this post in the next hour or so

Hi Bankfodder

TY for the reply. A little confused by this:

'm afraid that you seem to have a habit of rushing off before the documents are properly completed

I have only sent in the letter you helped me write to address the 4 points in the appeal, and told me was urgent to send in. Other than that I have not done anything yet, can you tell me where I am rushing off as I don't want to rush into anything?

Well maybe it's me rushing off to conclusions. I had the impression that you had gone off and posted your grounds of appeal before we had completed them here. Also, I would have finished off with a request that money be paid into court as a condition of allowing the defendants to mount their appeal – if indeed their request were to be granted.

If I got it wrong then sorry

Okay. I've looked at the order which you have received from the court. Although they haven't refused the defendants (appellants) request out right, it's actually pretty good news for you.

What it means is that the judge has taken into account the fact that they claim that the trial judge didn't consider the evidence. They have taken into consideration your grounds of appeal were in fact you say that this is simply not true and that the judge did take into account the evidence and in fact remarked upon it during the hearing and also in his judgement.

The appeal judges now saying that he wants to see it for himself so he wants to read the transcript and he wants to read the judgement to see whether you or they have got it wrong.

If you are correct that the trial judge did consider the evidence and did consider the contractual terms – as we have said in our grounds of appeal, then it is most likely that the appeal judge will refuse them leave to appeal. The other bit of good news is that this means that they will have to get hold of the transcript of the hearing and the judgement and that will eventually mean that you will get either a free copy or a copy at a very reduced rate.

Unless you still have your very admirable feeling of fair play towards the defendant, you will let us have a copy.

I hope that you understand now when I said before that the challenge to the trial judge refusal to let them appeal is a procedural matter and the appeal judge is merely concerned with whether the judge did his job properly. If the appeal judge considers that the trial judge did do his job properly then the appeal won't be allowed – regardless of the quality of the decision at trial.

Does this make sense?

Hi there

So I see that clearly, one caveat to that is that my letter has not yet got into their system (the courts told me that on this morning's call), however, the judge is probably 1 step ahead of me anyway. I can understand clearly that he is probably sat there, like you say, and saying "if you think there's something wrong, then show me".

So the transcript is good news for both of us because I have no intention of withholding that from you should I get it. I just don't think it's fair to be posting stuff up onto a forum without consent that's in print, public and forever. it could also come back to haunt me too!!. If we get to that point and we can get the transcript for free or reduced then just tell me how I can do that and I am happy to share it with you.

I got some help with a quote for the transcript. It would be £1.11 per 72 words if you needed it in 12 days, dropping to £0.30 per 72 words with no time limit. That would be about £1100 based upon 72 words = about 10 seconds of talk. Bet they wish they hadn't droned on for all that time now!!!

One question, would the courts allow them to use the unlimited time service or would they be required to pay the 12 day turn-around service on that transcript?

Yes, I agree it would certainly have been very quick for your grounds of appeal to reach the judge in time for this order. It may simply be that the judge has anticipated us. He is certainly acting completely correctly in wanting to see the transcript and he was probably rather puzzled at any claim that the trial judge might not have done his job properly.

In terms of deadlines for getting a transcript, the judge has imposed a pretty tight deadline there and I don't think he will be impressed if they say they need more time.

On the basis that the price that you have obtained, I think that we would have limited ourselves merely to the judgement and not a transcript of the entire proceedings.

I would expect that you would be supplied with a copy of the transcript as a matter of course – but I suggest that you write a nice polite – sweet letter to the other side saying that you note that they have been ordered to supply a transcript of the proceedings and of the judgement and can you assume that they will be making a copy available to you as well before the hearing of the appeal.

Also, if you can find out who are supplying them with the transcript, then that transcription service will supply you with your own copy at a very reduced price. They're not permitted to charge 100% for every new copy. Once it is typed up then that charge is borne by whoever bespeaks the original. Copies are provided at some marginal cost.

OKey dokey I will write them a letter, no problem with that. I will wait and see if it goes to hearing but will definitely ask for that.

I would write now. If you get no reply in 7 days then write again.

Do I need to do this as a letter or will an email suffice. Do I need to send a copy into the court too? They won't send me a copy if they don't have to.

I noticed there are only a few if not 1 company that does the transcription for the cases so I can always just call them up and ask for it I guess.

Email is fine. No you don't need to send it to the court. It doesn't matter too much that they don't send you a transcript. The important thing is that they show themselves as uncooperative and if there is eventually an appeal hearing, then every little bit of moral high ground helps.

a very polite email has been sent to them,

for either the transcript copy or the provider of it.

I have asked in the spirit of the small claims,

open and cooperative system and hope this doesn't poke the bear at all.

Funnily enough,

I'm glad we did not jump the gun in this case and get hold of the transcript before the appeal.

If i had done so then we would have paid for it and the defendants would have be getting it for free for their appeal right now.

Just something worth noting for future.

I'm glad we did not jump the gun in this case and get hold of the transcript before the appeal. If i had done so then we would have paid for it and the defendants would have be getting it for free for their appeal right now. Just something worth noting for future.

yes, you're right.