On 5/6/2017 I bought a Lexus LS430 from NW car sales, Heywood.

I paid £200 deposit by bank transfer and the balance of £3700 by Barclaycard.

After 400 yards on the journey home after purchase a warning light appeared on the dashboard.

I checked the manual and found it was safe to drive but needed checking by a dealer ASAP.

I returned (mid-afternoon) to find the dealer's office was closed.

Telephone calls were unanswered.

As I was over 80 miles from home I returned using the car.

I immediately sent the dealer an Email to say there was a problem and I would be taking the car to a Lexus dealer for checking.

The Lexus dealer found many faults and indicated the cost of repairs would be over £4500.

It was shown that the advertisement belied the condition of the vehicle.

e.g. full Lexus service history, two keys........

... One key is "dead" the Lexus service ends over 5000 miles ago

The rear suspension failed on my return home.

I immediately advised the dealer on 6/6/2017 that I did not want the vehicle and wanted an immediate refund in accordance with the Consumer Rights Act 2015 using a template letter from Citizens Advice Bureau.

The dealer indicated that this was "fair wear and tear" and on the basis of "goodwill" I was offered a refund minus £300 for preparation and expenses etc.

I rejected this and in subsequent Emails it was agreed that I would have a full refund when I returned the car.

I pointed out that the car

- minus rear suspension

- was not fit to drive and would need collection.

The dealer responded that I would need to pay £1.50 per mile to return the vehicle.

As I had paid by Barclaycard I also advised them of the situation and sent appropriate documents. Presently they are delaying action although my statement shows this debt in red.

I believe I am entitled to a full refund immediately although the dealer has now passed this to their "legal representatives" - Lawgistics.

I have researched this organisation to find that it represents the interests of retailers and its behaviour is questionable.

I am a 77 year old disabled pensioner and I bought this car to support a 95 year old handicapped friend to take her on comfortable outings.

I have a disability scooter and I am now without suitable transport.

I paid for 6 months vehicle road tax and transferred the vehicle to my insurance at a cost of £25.

I journeyed by train to buy this car and filled the tank with £50 of petrol in order to return home.

I paid the Lexus dealer £59 to inspect the car and provide a report which I have sent to the dealer and Barclaycard.

There is also the question of distress, inconvenience etc. I have made two hospital visits since then minus appropriate transport.

What claims can I make and what should I do next?

Barclaycard are equally responsible under section 75 of the CCA

and ofcourse as you've found out CRA.

and that's for the FULL VALUE you paid too.

You should certainly be starting a section 75 reclaim against Barclaycard. Do in writing. However, this may not get you all of the ancillary losses which you have suffered.

The garage of course is completely wrong to simply say that what you are experiencing is normal wear and tear. No reasonable consumer would expect to pay almost £4000 on a vehicle and then have to start paying out major sums for its repair almost immediately. It is clear that the car is not of a satisfactory standard.

You are within 30 days of having purchased the car so you have the right to have it repaired or to have a refund – at your option. I suggest that you get a refund.

I think the most important thing is to get rid of the car as quickly as possible. This means that you have to do whatever it takes to get the car back to the dealer and to leave it on his forecourt. Even if you incur expenses doing this, get rid of the car. While it is in your possession you are responsible for it in terms of keeping in good condition, and keeping it insured and taxed if it is being stored on the road.

Also, while it is in your possession things are much more complicated. Get the car back to the dealer – even if your money is not immediately forthcoming and then start dealing with a claim for a refund of the purchase price and your ancillary expenses.

When you get the car back to the dealer make sure that you photograph it thoroughly in case there are any arguments about the condition of the car when it arrives on the garage forecourt. This means that even when it is left on the forecourt, the last thing you do as you walk away from it is you take photographs all round. You will also have taken photographs of the interior. If somebody can be there is a witness and take their own corroborative photographs then that will help to counter any claims against you later on.

Make sure you itemise all of your expenses/losses even to the extent of the petrol which you put in the car and the cost of returning it.

Send the dealer a detailed letter setting out everything that has been found to be wrong so far in the expenses to which you have been put – including the purchase price. Tell the dealer that if you do not get a refund in full within 14 days that you will begin a small claims action in the County Court without any further notice.

If you're not prepared to do this then don't send the letter. Don't bluff.

At the expiry of the 14 days – issue the claim. This should not prevent you also making your section 75 claim against Barclays. Put it all in writing to Barclays and be persistent. They will be very happy about it and don't expect them to be enormously cooperative.

Don't expect any of this to be straightforward. I suggest that you get cars checked over properly before you buy them in future. The cheaper the car, the bigger the check.

If you want any draft your claim then let us know.If you do anything on the phone then make sure that you have implemented the advice in our customer services guide first.

Thank you for your prompt and sound advice.

I have read very thoroughly since having this experience. It's the first time I've been "done" in over 75 years.

I checked with the previous servicing Lexus garage who told me the car had been very well looked after.

I checked out the garage and found it had existed for several years.

I bought a Parker's HIP check.

The advert said "Full service history".

I'm handicapped and was unable to make a mechanical check of the vehicle prior to purchase especially as it was pouring down and they didn't offer a showroom, although I did have a short drive.

I've been advised via a friend who asked a solicitor not to return the car because they'll keep my money and it will take months to get it back.

Furthermore the vehicle can not be driven as the rear suspension has gone.

The retailer is over 90 miles away and I would have to accompany however it was returned and then find my way to Manchester Piccadilly station.

As I stated

- I'm a pensioner and do not have the money required to fulfil this suggestion.

I'm a fully paid up AA member but I don't suppose they can help.

I can certainly take adequate photographs.

What should I do next?

I have now been without transport for three weeks.

I'm also almost housebound and need to keep hospital appointments.

Barclaycard have failed to send me the appropriate form - they're sending another.

I sent all the details to the fraud department at Barclays over a week ago

and they haven't passed the details on to India

(China - the Philippines or wherever they can find cheap labour).

Ho hum - it's a sad world but thank you once again for your help.

Perhaps it would help if you posted what Lexus it is, age, mileage etc first??? And perhaps what you paid???

Thanks for the replies

Sorry for the delay in response

- I'm being held up with hospital appointments etc

I have begun this topic with several of the items you ask?

The only things missing are mileage 165000 and year 2003

Why the extra question marks Am I devised as stupid

This is the latest delay from their "solicitors" - arrived today not recorded:

"Our client is prepared to collect the Vehicle for inspection purposes only in the first instance.I

f you are agreeable, kindly confirm the location of the vehicle for collection

and a mobile number on which you might be contactable on the day in question and before, for the purpose of fixing a mutually convenient date and time.

We look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

Lawgistics Ltd

I haven't replied yet because I'm hoping someone here will tell me what to do.

As far as I am concerned they are collecting their car and returning my money.

It's already been fully inspected.

They already have a copy of a full report from the local Lexus garage for which I paid £59.00

Help please. I don't need all the question marks - thank you. ;-)

I can attach a report if someone tells me what to do. I'm new to this forum.

Kind regards to all and thanks for the comments

tidied it for you. not done our way

I would be sending a copy of your report to Barclays too

a section 75 complaint should taken and filed over the phone not via some form?

Thanks for tidying the message.

I found the question marks disturbing.

You didn't remove them from the previous entry however.

Barclays, Solicitors, Retailer all have copies of everything.

What should I be responding to the solicitor please - see red letter above.

As far as I'm concerned the vehicle is theirs

- indeed it's still advertised for sale!!!

Help please - thanks.

Everything has been sent 1st class recorded delivery to everyone except for the odd Emails

which have also been copied and included in the posted material.

The only phone calls made were in preparation for travel and did not include any business.

I'll wait until tomorrow before responding to the "solicitors".

I doubt if they are a proper legal organisation anyway.

Should I let them take the car?

That's the advice given above which I've followed

including taking photographs.

NW car sales must read this material - all the advertisements appear to have disappeared.

Interestingly the battle continues.

Lawgistics are, of course, involved.

The retailer is to take his car "for inspection" where he will then give instructions to his solicitors.

(Wrong of course - it's been inspected by Lexus).

He was supposed to collect on Friday 7th July but failed to turn up.

Can I take out an injunction to have him remove his property?

Regards to all

Sorry but just don't get this thread.

Person buys big expensive old used car with lots of miles, in fact over design intent miles.

On way home error light flagged.

Takes into dealer and asks for full vehicle report as opposed to finding out what is wrong.

Not surprising they'll come up with a list costing £4.5K.

And now the dealer challenges.

What do you expect to happen?

Lets get some real facts from the OP first as at the moment the advice being given is frankly poor and should be better from this site.

This is not a clear cut case by any means and I think the site team are leading the OP into a long running massive disappointment.

I know you say the advertisement has gone.

Look at this link is that the one? http://www.karsales-northwest.co.uk/cars/lexus/ls/430/89501/50

Hello Stu007

Thanks for the info - same dealer - different car. I guess they've been to another auction.

Regards

Hello heliosuk

I think that's a little harsh don't you?

"This is not a clear cut case by any means."

This isn't the only site where I have researched and

you might be surprised at the answers.

I was fully aware of the mileage but I'm a member of the Lexus Owners' Club

where several members have this model which has done over 300000 miles and still

going strong.

"On way home error light flagged"

After 400 yards the error light came on.

By the time I'd turned round and returned the birds had flown.

I went to the Lexus dealer because I'd already visited them and they

had advised that the car had been well cared for.

But let's look at some facts:

1. The dealer said "FULL LEXUS HISTORY" - last serviced 18 months before

and covered over 5000 miles since.

2. 12 months MOT - the MOT had been "passed" with warnings in February since when

it had stood in a compound exposed to weather.

The Consumer Rights Act is very clear and I have spent several hours studying it.

5 Sales contracts

(1) A contract is a sales contract if under it—

(a) the trader transfers or agrees to transfer ownership of goods to the consumer, and

(b) the consumer pays or agrees to pay the price.

So a contract exists.

9 Goods to be of satisfactory quality

(1) Every contract to supply goods is to be treated as including a term that the quality of the goods is satisfactory.

(2) The quality of goods is satisfactory if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would consider satisfactory, taking account of—

(a) any description of the goods,

(b) the price or other consideration for the goods (if relevant), and

© all the other relevant circumstances (see subsection (5)).

(3) The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—

(a) fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied;

(b) appearance and finish;

© freedom from minor defects;

(d) safety;

(e) durability.

20 Right to reject

(7) From the time when the right is exercised—

(a) the trader has a duty to give the consumer a refund

(8) Whether or not the consumer has a duty to return the rejected goods,

the trader must bear any reasonable costs of returning them

(15) A refund under this section must be given without undue delay, and in any event

within 14 days beginning with the day on which the trader agrees that the consumer

is entitled to a refund.

(17) The trader must not impose any fee on the consumer in respect of the refund.

The trader agreed that I would have a refund 2 days after I bought it (5/6/2017).

No sign of a refund yet.

The trader said I would have to pay £300 for preparation etc.

The trader said I would have to return the vehicle or pay £1.50 per mile.

The vehicle is currently stored and the trader has failed to keep any

promises of collection.

This doesn't create a picture of an honest dealer.

So OK - I'm not a mechanic - I could say "The big ends have gone" and then expect

the dealer to demand to inspect.

The faults found by Lexus will not disappear when the dealer inspects.

I've been very pleased with the help from this site but I have researched elsewhere

in numerous places - some traders - some legal seagulls - I was a delegate to the Law Society

so I have many friends who "know."

Members should look up Lawgistics and see what they do.

"What do you expect to happen?"

I expect to have not only what I paid refunded but also my expenses returned.

Are you a trader?

You seem to respond without studying. I put most of the details you asked for in my first posting.

Hi Stu007

That one's gone now. I'm sure they read this.

Like a few other car traders I guess.

Kind regards

what's the latest kingell?

Got any further with your claim for a car priced commensurate with age and mileage (and by the way, I'm not a dealer either! Just a realist who knows what's what with cars)?!

Just don't get thispost from the op.

Claims all sorts of things,

moans about advice on a car well past it's design life and then tries to blame a dealer perhaps acting in good faith for his own errors to me.

Champagne tastes and beer money with a lot of time on ones hands to cause trouble springs to mind.

you won't be wasting anymore of my professional time thank you unless you want to pay for it.

Good grief is there no end to the sue grab it and run brigrade who through their own stupidity fail to check and take advice before buying an ultra high mileage car and then expect it to be perfect and then resort to keyboard lawyers for supposedly advice as what to do.

MAny professionals have supported this site in the past but it's posts like this and the response from some of the site team which are wholly incorrect and unreliable that leads it into disrepute. This is why they leave.

Hello Heliosuk

I'm afraid you haven't understood how this forum works ( and perhaps others too ).

It's designed to help and support others not to castigate and sneer.

You have been unnecessarily rude both in this posting and I see elsewhere too.

"moans about advice on a car well past it's design life" "to me" (?)

There are many of us who have to use vehicles which are past their design life. I'm a disabled pensioner -

perhaps you would like me off the road so you can use your own superior vehicle.

You obviously don't read posts correctly. I have made no moans whatsoever merely stated facts

and asked for advice which I have received nor did I ask for your comments. I have also bought the recommended book.

I see you are a very experienced and proud engineer.

"You won't be wasting anymore of my professional time thank you unless you want to pay for it."

If you are not a lawyer or qualified legally then you should not be offering your "professional time" to me.

I have my own expert repairers. I find your contributions unnecessary and frankly infantile and unduly pompous.

"It's posts like this and the response from some of the site team which are wholly incorrect and unreliable that leads it into disrepute."

What utter nonsense! I have been well helped and made excellent progress and thanked those who helped me both here and in PMs.

In responding to your query I'm not reporting here for the time being because this post is obviously read and I don't want to help the defendant. Far from being "wholly incorrect" I'm successfully following previous advice. The vehicle has been returned to the trader paid for by Barclaycard.

• "Pretty females who couldn't explain the difference between a con rod and a piston unless high on prosecco"
  
• "Utter rubbish. You have no grounds to prove this or are qualified I would alledge!! " ( allege by the way )
  
• "if not then get on with your life."
  

and many similar others.

It's posts like yours that upset and offend and will drive away people who will benefit from this excellent site.

Find another site to brag and be rude on. I think you've offended enough people and up to now I haven't read

a reasonable contribution for you. Reflect before you post and consider whether what you say is offensive.

That's not what this site is about.

I don't want a reply or a further comment and I'm certainly not paying for your "professional time" whatever that comprises.

Please read the guidance for how this forum operates.

Thank you.

So here we have an intelligent dealer????

What do you make of this? (Copied verbatim - only edited to fit - runs continuously)

"we got a phone call from an unknown number claiming to be barclaycard

we went along with it as we genuinely believed that the person on the other end of the line was actually a barclaycard customer adviser.

however things started to get a little suspicious for us when we never got a call back that was promised from the so called barclaycard.

after a little digging and a call to barclaycard and global payments who provide our card machine facility to us we discovered that the real barclaycard had no idea about a Mr (sic me) who had phoned about a refund etc and things started to fit into place.

let me tell you at this point we were advised to call the police!

but we decided to wait for correspondence from yourself!"

I see he found the shift key for M - full stop seems elusive.

And he just lies and lies.

The car has been returned and filmed in situ. County Court Action to be started on Monday.

He seems to think the law has nothing to do with him.

No further info on here for the time being - it's being followed I know.

Kind regards to all.

good work

deserves to be exposed.

dx

Hello dx100uk

Thanks for your comment.

"deserves to be exposed."

He will be - I've alerted Trading Standards, Get Dom (BBC), Watchdog (BBC) and the Daily Mail.

I'm not posting any direct details here because it will help the defendant who probably follows

postings here but I will be repeating here the progress I make.

There are many - sadly some on this site - who think that all motor dealers

are wonderful and their status should not be challenged.

This has taken two months of my social and business time.

Along with many other advertisers he states "FULL HISTORY."

I've researched his background and he has had several dissolved companies.

All readers of this excellent website should enlarge any web photos to find that

in most cases this isn't true.

Regards to all

Just as I was advised

- he's trying to say I've damaged his car now he's got it back.

Fortunately I took advice from here and had witnesses, photos and filmed the car in situ when returned.

This is what he said

- BTW time's nearly up for him

- I've filled the claim form.

I'm sending for the £205 postal order now.

Copied verbatim - I don't think he passed GCSE English.

"You are a liar I have enough evidence to prove if you want to go down that route then that's fine with Nw car sales,

remember when you fill in the papers you are suing nw car sales get that right so no need to put any personal names on it.

I have prepared evidence and can prove all the lies you have said.

The car has been inspected independently and the way the car has come back is not the way it was driven away from our premises.

If you want to go to court then we will Counter claim our stress and damage to the car."

I don't know from where he'll claim his counter!

Thanks again to all those who have helped. I'll update with progress.

hope hes got proof of how it left his hands, I bet not.

oh and i'd put both as joint defendants.

cause obv he doesn't want you to do it against his name

probably because the others that have done that have succeeded in getting judgement that he pers cant run away from by changing the Co. name the next week

as I see he's done in the passed

Thanks dx100uk

I'm sorry I don't quite understand your response.

I have already prepared the claim in the name of the owner together with my bundle which is ready to post

when I get a £205 postal order.

Are you suggesting that I should redo it and add the other name associated with the premises?

I've had no communication from him.

"he pers cant run away from by changing the Co. name the next week"

I'm not sure what that means. The "Co." doesn't seem to be registered anywhere

but there is a VAT number on the receipt and it's not Ltd.

He has a large stock including some valuable cars.

Do you think he might scarper?

Belt and braces:

I've still got the credit card to fall back on but they are a bit slow and somewhat unhelpful

although they have paid for the car transporter..

Kind regards and thanks again for your helpful comments.

BTW DX100 Yamaha keyboard?

if you read up on claims against motor traders

you will see that they change trading names and avoid CCJ's because, hey its not us

that name is defunct.

add him personally to your claim under his name too

claim against Ie North West car sales + him by name.

though i'm surprised BC are taking this up for you under section 75

Hi dx100uk

Following your informative post I've been doing some checking.

There are three directors of "NWCA TRADING LTD" which has the same postal address etc and describe themselves as trading in cars and light vehicles.

My receipts show NW car sales

- no mention of LTD

- I've found NWCA TRADING LTD by searching for details after your post.

I haven't posted the claim yet so I'm still researching.

I'll see what I can find from the VAT number.

I don't want it bounced because it's wrongly directed.

I can't find NW car sales on any register but one of the other "directors" is active in another company which is returning accounts.

I've bought and read the Ebook "The Consumer Survival Handbook" - very good but a hard read on a Kindle book reader or monitor screen.

Also in the excellent book advertised here by Pearl and Goodman (unfortunately a bit out of date - 2008) which I've also bought, there are different directions for a "firm" and a Limited Company but the advice is:

"If the firm's notepaper, website or the notice displayed in the "shop" ( in my case office ) reveals that the prospective defendant is a limited company then that is the name which should be used on the claim form"

I can't find LTD on anything I've received or on the website (which identifies as "karsales-northwest.co.uk".) The office is a dinghy room in an old business centre. I didn't see anything there. According to the above book this is a firm and name(s) should be used in the claim.

At the moment I'm somewhat puzzled as I have only ever dealt with one individual by Email (that's his illiterate script I've quoted above) but the salesperson was not this individual. I believe this was one of the other directors to whom cc Emails are often directed. The third director appears to be the wife of the main miscreant who has an unusual name.

I think I'm OK using the directions given in the book but it might be worth using the firm's title and adding the words "a trading name" as suggested in the book. But then can they all scarper or use a different name?

Can anyone else add to your excellent advice?

I've noticed in the link enlarged above Pearl that there is a "new" edition (2010) - mine is 2008. I bought it on Amazon because the PayPal link doesn't work on this site. Any comments anywhere please?

Kind regards to all

I see we have guests. Hello and welcome.

Still don't get this post other than a grumpy old pensioner with champagne tastes and beer money buying a luxury car with mega mileage, not doing recommended homework prior to buying and now crying over spilt milk.

Other posts he's made confirm he can't calculate and then he thinks he's so sure to criticise me.

Just for his information,

I've helped quite a few people on here save and recover thousands of pounds of inappropriate sales or repairs and I don't shout about it.

But what I do is criticise people for being plain stupid or inappropriate advice.

If you have a problem then state the full facts, don't mess around feeling sorry for yourself and then think because of some internet advice you can charge around like St George.