Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #21
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Fringer View Post
    Is it worth me getting a solicitor?

    I sent a message to the ops manager recently as she has now left the company and we were supposed to be friends.
    She got nasty with me and said I wasn't entitled to the pay as I should have been sacked for poor performance!
    Never once was I spoken to about poor performance in the 2 years I was there.
    Doesn't matter what SHOULD have happened - the facts relate to what ACTUALLY happened and you have proof of the amount that was due to you. Copies of bank statements (providing that this was the usual route for salary payments) would also show that what was paid differed from the amount stated?

    A solicitor may well charge more than you are due but there would probably be no harm in getting a free consultation if you can - just to outline your options

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  2. #22
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    This is what I thought.
    Still if the company is in liquidation, I still won't get any money will I? Even though I have proof the ops manager said the new owner was paying the wages for the month they were supposed to pay me for
    Can I go after the new owner?


  3. #23
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    If you can get a free consultation with a solicitor you could ask. Probably the answer will be that you are a creditor and will have to wait and see that the liquidators eventually pay out. I think employees with unpaid wages rank as priority creditors but I haven't been able to check whether ex-employees redundancy pay also has priority. So you might (eventually) get most of it back. Might be worth asking the liquidator how things stand. Is the ops manager now working for the 'new owner'? If not it's really irrelevant what she said as she isn't a manager or officer of the new company and presumably has no authority to make commitments of their behalf. In any case sounds like she said the new owner was paying current employees - presumably to retain them in the business - and you had left a month before the liquidation.


  4. #24
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    She was working for them until 2 weeks ago.
    It was while she was still there I text her to ask if the Director was going to have me over and she said the new owner was paying staff from his company even though the paperwork hadn't gone through for the liquidation.

    When I was offered redundancy I asked for a lump sum but was told the company had no money so I would have to be paid monthly as a wage
    I then received the first month's pay, nothing the 2nd month then all of a sudden I received a P45 stating I'd left
    The P45 year to date figure stated I'd received 2 months pay in that year but I had only received the one. It is only now I've discovered that the payroll was actually run for me they just never paid me.
    I emailed and asked where the 2nd month's money was and she told me that was the figure I'd earned, not necessarily what I was to be paid!

    The owner was so dodgy, one time he paid someone a penny saying he didn't have enough to pay out and the bloke was loaded and wouldn't notice.

    He thinks I'm just going to walk away but he's also stolen our pension contributions. He was reported every month for non payment of pensions yet they were still being stopped from our wages.

    It makes my blood boil to think he just walks away Scott free


  5. #25
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethel Street View Post
    If you can get a free consultation with a solicitor you could ask. Probably the answer will be that you are a creditor and will have to wait and see that the liquidators eventually pay out. I think employees with unpaid wages rank as priority creditors but I haven't been able to check whether ex-employees redundancy pay also has priority. So you might (eventually) get most of it back. Might be worth asking the liquidator how things stand. Is the ops manager now working for the 'new owner'? If not it's really irrelevant what she said as she isn't a manager or officer of the new company and presumably has no authority to make commitments of their behalf. In any case sounds like she said the new owner was paying current employees - presumably to retain them in the business - and you had left a month before the liquidation.
    Can I just check, you said employees with unpaid wages are priority -
    I have since been sent a payslip for the 2nd month of my redundancy (of which I never received the payment) which explains why my P45 figure is wrong

    The liquidator has told HMRC that I left the post in March even though my redundancy was supposed to be until the end of June - now the redundancy service are asking me for money back as they paid me 1 week redundancy

    The liquidator is insisting that my employment ended the day I walked out and is also saying that they are unable to make payment to me as it constitutes a preference payment. Surely though if my payroll was run for the month of May and I never received the money, this constitutes stealing??


  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fringer View Post
    Can I just check, you said employees with unpaid wages are priority -
    I have since been sent a payslip for the 2nd month of my redundancy (of which I never received the payment) which explains why my P45 figure is wrong

    The liquidator has told HMRC that I left the post in March even though my redundancy was supposed to be until the end of June - now the redundancy service are asking me for money back as they paid me 1 week redundancy

    The liquidator is insisting that my employment ended the day I walked out and is also saying that they are unable to make payment to me as it constitutes a preference payment. Surely though if my payroll was run for the month of May and I never received the money, this constitutes stealing??
    This goes back to the point I made to you originally

    If these are payments in lieu of notice your employment ended before the liquidation and therefore you don't qualify for RPS payments or protections

    And sorry but my iPad seems to be having a spat with the site and won't post properly! The point being that if you were not actually an employee at the point of liquidation then the money you are owed isn't any of their concern And nor are you a preferred creditor because you aren't an employee at the point of liquidation Payment in lieu terminates your employment with immediate effect and so you can't count your period of employment to the end of the supposed notice period

    I am unclear here too about your comment that you walked out?

    And sorry again but my iPad had decided it doesn't like to post full stops or commas!!! Don't you just love technology???

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  7. #27
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Thanks for answering

    I think I am probably using the wrong term

    I was offered redundancy and given 3 months notice the letter I received was dated 8th March.
    I was told I would be paid at the end of each month taking my employment up to the end of June.
    The company was keen to let me leave early as the director was fraudulent and enjoyed making my work day awkward by watching everything I done in case I gathered evidence against him so they agreed to let me leave on 10th March.

    I received pay at the end of March..I then received pay at the end of April.
    On the 17th May I was told.by another employee that they had even told the company would now be known as a different name.

    I asked the director and ops manager what this would mean with regard to my pay and was told nothing. I would still be paid.

    I never received any further payments.
    I then received a P45 with a leaving date of 18th May and a gross pay figure showing 2 months pay (April and May)
    I hadn't received any payment for May.

    They P45 date got changed to 31st May eventually but the figure stayed the same with the ops manager saying it is what I would've earned not what I had received.

    The ops manager text me to tell me that the new owner was paying the old company's wages for May.
    I still never received any money.
    I took both the company I worked for and the new company to tribunal and it was found in my favour against the company I had worked for but not the new company as I had never worked for them.

    I had received a weeks redundancy from HMRC and now they are saying that the liquidator have told them I left on 10th March therefore I have been overpaidicon and they want money back.

    The liquidator insists my employment ended on 10th March and says I cannot get and preference payment I am owed even though the court says I am owed 2 months pay.

    Sorry for the long story


  8. #28
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    I think you are comparing apples and pears and thinking they are the same thing!

    The Redundancy Payments Service is not in a position to judge who is telling the truth. That is for a court of law. Nor, at this moment in time, is anything a tribunal decided a matter of concern for them. And whether your former employer is a crook or not is simply muddying the waters, because neither the RPS nor the tribunal care about that.

    The RPS has been informed, by the insolvency practitioner, of your final days of employment. They cannot dispute that. They cannot take your word for it. The insolvency practitioner is independent- they have no interest in lying to you or to the RPS. The IP may be operating on incorrect information, but that information is what they have available too them, and they can't change it. According to the information they have, you have been overpaidicon and they need you to repay that money.

    Quite separately from that, it appears that you have gone to a tribunal to get a ruling on the money you alleged was owed to you. It is up to you, not the RPS, to enforce that judgement. The fact that the company is liquidated is irrelevant to that - if you cannot enforce the judgement then you will have to reapply to the tribunal, and then you may get some of that money from the RPS.

    The risk here is that the tribunal service will agree that your date of termination is the one being used by the RPS and the IP, unless you can actually evidence that you remained in employment until the later date, despite the evidence of the IP and RPS. The fact that a tribunal had already agreed that you are owed money is irrelevant- that decision does not necessarily mean they have judged what your termination date was, only that you were owed money. And you cannot now ask them to judge that matter because your claim would be out of time. So unless you have an actual ruling that states unequivocally that your termination date was the later date, there isn't anywhere at all that this can now go - all the evidence is that it is the earlier date and it is too late to dispute that. Even if you did, it might be an empty victory, as that wouldn't necessarily mean you'd get the money either!

    At this stage, I really think you need to consider your position - is the effort to continue this worth it? And you probably do need legal advice if you decide to continue to fight, because this had strayed into grey areas of responsibility and law, and whether there is anything to win or not cannot be judged easily. Unfortunately, you might get a free 30 minutes initially, but I doubt that will be enough to advise you. So it may well cost you something to get the advice you need - and that is also part of that balanced judgement you need to make about whether, a year later, the time and effort and potential cost is worth the return. Quite apart from anything else, it comes across strongly that you are very angry about this. I don't blame you for being angry either. But the cost to your blood pressure can't be small - a years worth of anger is unhealthy. It may be time to set this down and accept that it happened and move on. But only you can decide that.


  9. #29
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Sangie595 View Post
    Quite separately from that, it appears that you have gone to a tribunal to get a ruling on the money you alleged was owed to you. It is up to you, not the RPS, to enforce that judgement. The fact that the company is liquidated is irrelevant to that - if you cannot enforce the judgement then you will have to reapply to the tribunal, and then you may get some of that money from the RPS.
    Hi
    Thank you for your answer. It really has helped and yes, I think you are right. I need to leave this alone now where the liquidators are concerned

    I note your comment up there about it is up to me to enforce the judgement. Do you mean me go after him for the money?? How do I do that?

    You're right, I am so angry about this and the fact he has done it time and time again with no consideration for the upset or hardship he causes. He is now claiming he is the director of the new company and is running up more bills left right and centre.




  10. #30
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    I'm sorry, but this happens so often, there's even a term for it. "Pheonixing". Creating a new company from the ashes of another, and leaving everyone burned!

    The problem is that enforcement is at a cost - effectively you must either take further legal action or send in HCOs ("the bailiffs"). And until yippy have attempted enforcement you can't go back to the tribunal. But you also won't ever see the money that action costs back. Which is why most people give up at this stage.


  11. #31
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Sangie595 View Post
    I'm sorry, but this happens so often, there's even a term for it. "Pheonixing". Creating a new company from the ashes of another, and leaving everyone burned!

    The problem is that enforcement is at a cost - effectively you must either take further legal action or send in HCOs ("the bailiffs"). And until yippy have attempted enforcement you can't go back to the tribunal. But you also won't ever see the money that action costs back. Which is why most people give up at this stage.
    Thanks for your answer - sorry I have only just seen it.

    I done what I said I would do, and left it.... But then...

    I have now been contacted by the Insolvency Service of HMRC to say that the 1 weeks redundancy I received has been overpaidicon.

    The liquidator gave my leaving date of 10th March 2017 (which is the day I left my post)

    The Director told me I was free to leave as it was uncomfortable for me to stay and they knew I had another job to go to which was starting on 13th April 2017.

    Once I'd left I received a months pay at the end of March for March wages
    I then received months pay at the end of April for April wages (notice pay)

    I never received any further payments or wage slips
    On the 1st June I received a P45 giving my leaving date as 31st May and the gross to pay date showed I had been paid for both April and May

    I am now being told that as the liquidator gave my leaving date as 10th March I am to pay back half of the 1 week redundancy I received.

    I have contacted a solicitor about it who has taken a few days to come back to me to say I need to speak to HMRC which I have done.
    HMRC told me I need to speak to the liquidator, which I have done. All he keeps saying is I left on 10th March.

    This is absolutely doing my head in now!!!!


  12. #32
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Ah. Skipping back over some earlier posts I think they are probably right. You said you had three weeks redundancy pay for just over two years service? That should have been two weeks redundancy pay, not three. Plus, and you so won't want to hear this, I'm not now sure you were entitled to any! Your STATUTORY notice was only two weeks. You had a new job already, more than two weeks from your "end date" date, which is June, not March. As a result, you weren't entitled to redundancy pay in law. I think you'll have to repay it. I don't think this is one you can win, because any way I view it, I don't see you entitled to statutory redundancy pay at all. Sorry.


  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sangie595 View Post
    Ah. Skipping back over some earlier posts I think they are probably right. You said you had three weeks redundancy pay for just over two years service? That should have been two weeks redundancy pay, not three. Plus, and you so won't want to hear this, I'm not now sure you were entitled to any! Your STATUTORY notice was only two weeks. You had a new job already, more than two weeks from your "end date" date, which is June, not March. As a result, you weren't entitled to redundancy pay in law. I think you'll have to repay it. I don't think this is one you can win, because any way I view it, I don't see you entitled to statutory redundancy pay at all. Sorry.
    Thanks for replying. I just want it over with tbh.

    I know over the post I've used the wrong wording a lot of the time cos I was so confused about it all.

    I was told by the company to apply for redundancy from the insolvency service. I gave them all of the information and was awarded the statutory 1 week's pay. Was about 400 I think if I remember.

    The company was supposed to pay me 3 month's notice. Not redundancy. 3 month's notice plus 3 weeks as per our agreement.

    I still need to find out how to get my P45 amended as the figure is wrong therefore my tax has been wrong


  14. #34
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    That's clear now. Yes, they are correct.

    For you, and for anyone else reading this, redundancy pay is not an absolute right. It is compensation for being out of work (or that was its original intention in law), not a termination payment or a gift. Not saying you thought it was, but a lot of people do think that!

    The entitlement to redundancy pay is calculated on statutory notice, not contractual notice. Anyone who obtains another job before their statutory notice period does not qualify for redundancy payments. The employer can choose to make payments, but they don't legally have to.

    And before anyone else asks, because I've come across this one all too often, getting a job and deliberately keeping it quiet to get your redundancy payment is fraud! At best, if the employer ever find out, they can come after you for the money. But they could sue you for fraud too. So please, don't anyone do it! If you are facing losing your job and you are lucky enough to get another one, be thankful for small mercies that you'll not have to worry about where the money to pay bills is coming from - that's worth much more than any redundancy package.


  15. #35
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Ok thanks for clearing that up - so I do have to pay back the 180 or so they're asking for from the Insolvency service.
    Crap but ok - I get it. At least that clears that up

    As for the P45 though? Any ideas?

    I did get sent a payslip that was generated for me for the month of May by the accountants who took over payroll after I left. They did obviously mean for the company to pay me but they didn't.
    I know I'll never get that money.
    How do I get the P45 information changed as I'm now being taxed a higher rate as HMRC think I received more than I actually did


  16. #36
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Sorry but not a clue on the P45. Tax stuff confuses the hell out of me!


  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sangie595 View Post
    Sorry but not a clue on the P45. Tax stuff confuses the hell out of me!
    I contacted a solicitor who said they are employment specialists.
    I've had an email back saying they cannot help me and I should contact citizens advice?


  18. #38
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    I thought citizens advice were just volunteers who look up law and info from books?


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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Fringer View Post
    I thought citizens advice were just volunteers who look up law and info from books?



    "just"??

    Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    To save us re-reading the thread, have you spoken to HMRC about the P45 issues? They might be able to advise you.


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