Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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  1. #1
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    Question made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Hi all

    Someone has just told me about this site and said it's the best place for advice
    I wonder if anyone can help me please

    The company I last worked at have just started liquidation proceedings. I was made redundant a month before this happened and so I have only received 1 months pay in lieu
    My query is I've received a P45 from them but the pay to date figure states 2 months pay
    They say their accountants said it's right as it's what I've earned - but I never received it and now I have to wait to see if there's any money to pay creditors who are beneficial into the continuity of the running of the business before I will get anything
    Is this right?


  2. #2
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    Default

    I'm not 100% clear what you are saying here
    - are you entitled to two months pay in lieu of notice,
    or are you discussing gardening leave?


    It is correct that if you are no longer an employee you do not enjoy the same protection from the redundancy payments service,
    and so you are a simple creditor who may get some of their money,
    but quite possibly not all of it (or none of it).


  3. #3
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Hi
    Thanks for getting back to me
    I was told I would be entitled to 3 months in lieu of notice. I had only received 1 month (April) then I was told they were going into liquidation
    I got my P45 of Friday and it has my leaving date as 31st May and pay to date states 2 months pay. I haven;t received 2 months money though so dont quite understand. Also the boxx said they went into liquidation on 1st June so I was wondering why I never got paid for May and why they have put i ton my P45 that I have?
    Surely thats not right is it?


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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    You need to separate out ;
    a) what pay / PILON, and
    b) what (if any) redundancy you are owed.

    How long had you had 'continuous service' there?.

    You should work out a) and b) for both :
    i) what your contract with the firm says (which you might try and claim from the liquidator, but expect 'pennies in the pound' at most), as well as
    ii) what you could claim from the government statutory scheme for insolvent companies (which may be a less generous allowance that your contractual entitlement, as you only get what statute allows : but at least you should get it paid in full, unlike the remaining contractual amounts!)

    The thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-my-redundancy
    has some useful links. (I gave up advising there, as that OP wasn't listening to the advice offered by me or another poster : but the links are still relevant!)


  5. #5
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Ok thanks that makes sense

    PILON was 3 months according to my contract
    Redundancy was 3 weeks (I am 43 and had just over 2 years continuous service)

    I understand that I'm likely to get nothing from the liquidator and maybe (if I'm lucky, a little bit from the government scheme) but I am really not sure about this P45 they have issued me as the Gross Pay to Date figure is clearly incorrect. Just wonder if this legal?


  6. #6
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    You need to work out both the PILON and redundancy for BOTH the contractual amounts and the statutory amounts.

    Then work out if what you have had exceeds the statutory amounts : if so you can't claim it from the statutory scheme (as you've already had it........ and can't claim it twice!), as the statutory scheme is where you'll stand more chance of actually getting anything.

    If you've already been paid the statutory amount (working it out for each for redundancy and pay/PILON) then it isn't worth claiming that amount from the statutory scheme as it'll be declined. You can then go back to trying to claim the excess from the insolvent company (if you decide it is worth the effort given the limited likelihood of success).


  7. #7
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Is this what you mean?

    PILON should be 3 months @ 2500 gross = 7500
    Redundancy should be 3 weeks @ 576.92 gross = 1730.76
    Total = 9230.76
    I've received 2500 gross

    P45 states total pay to date 5000 gross


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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    You still need to look at the limits of what you can claim under the statutory scheme, at which point you may find that looking into if the PILON you received was 1 month or 2 months is irrelevant.

    For now focus on the 'time' you are owed / were paid, rather than the 'amount'. So "1 weeks worth" or "1 months worth' and so on, rather than an amount. Then (if need be), at the end, you can convert that into amounts, bearing in mind the limits (time and amounts) of the statutory scheme .......

    I'd suggest creating a table, something along the lines of :
    (CAGicon text posts makes tables trickier for me, so here's a PDFicon of an example)

    Then you can reassess what you can claim, and from where, and decide if it is worth it for what you are then likely to receive from that source.

    Attached Files

  9. #9
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Thanks for those I will have a go when I'm on a computer

    I just don't get why they would put 2 months pay on my P45 when I've only received 1 month. Something smells fishy to me


  10. #10
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    is there a statutory PILON amount?
    Scrap that, just found it. It's 1 week for each year worked


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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    https://www.gov.uk/claim-loss-notice

    Have a look at that previous thread, and the links therein. Its all in there.


  12. #12
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    Default

    Thank you for the PDFicon Bazza I've filled it in

    Statutory Statutory Actually Paid Actually Paid Contractual Contractual
    PILON Redundancy (If paid 1 month) (if paid 2 months) PILON Redundancy
    576.92 479 2500 2500 2500 576.92
    x weeks x weeks 1 month 2 months x months x weeks
    2 3 1 2 3 3
    1153.84 1437 2500 5000 7500 1730.76

    Calculated
    Statutory PILON and Contractual PILON total 8653.84
    Statutory Redundancy and Contractual Redundancy total 3167.76

    Received
    PILON 2500.00

    Does that make sense?

    Ooo sorry, posted before I saw your answer.
    Yes I will use that when I finally get a reference number. Cant do anything until then I know.

    From what I can make out, even just the statutory payments total 2590.84 so cannot fathom why they would put 5000 on the P45


  13. #13
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Quote Originally Posted by S6Bint View Post
    Thank you for the PDFicon Bazza I've filled it in

    Statutory Statutory Actually Paid Actually Paid Contractual Contractual
    PILON Redundancy (If paid 1 month) (if paid 2 months) PILON Redundancy
    576.92 479 2500 2500 2500 576.92
    x weeks x weeks 1 month 2 months x months x weeks
    2 3 1 2 3 3
    1153.84 1437 2500 5000 7500 1730.76

    Calculated
    Statutory PILON and Contractual PILON total 8653.84
    Statutory Redundancy and Contractual Redundancy total 3167.76

    Received
    PILON 2500.00

    Does that make sense?
    As I said, tables are hard when posting in text on CAGicon.

    The point you'll be able to see from that table is that your actual pay received (even 1 month or 2 months) exceeds the stat PILON (2 weeks), so no point in going for that from the stat scheme, as you'll get nowt extra.
    You can still try and get it from the insolvent company, but don't hold out hope for anything at all, or more than pennies in the pound, (for contractual PILON or contractual redundancy).

    However, if you were entitled to redundancy (had you resigned, or were you made redundant?), if you haven't been paid redundancy from the firm, you can claim that from the statutory scheme (3 weeks worth). If you get that 3 weeks worth from the scheme, you should get all that you are owed, within that scheme's limits so you don't have to risk getting pennies in the pound from the company (for that, limited, statutory sum).

    It is easier to see what you can get, and where, from the table. You claim what you can from the statutory scheme, as it pays out (guaranteed recovery as it is government funded, but often less than your contractual entitlement as it has different, statutory, limits that can be less than your contractual entitlement), and then decide if you want to try to claim any extra you (that you are entitled to claim but only MIGHT get paid, as the company is insolvent), claiming from the company .....

    what you haven't yet included is the limit (per week) reclaimable from the government scheme.
    https://www.gov.uk/your-rights-if-yo...ey-owed-to-you

    You've already had more than 2 weeks PILON paid, so forget about PILON from the statutory scheme. Up to you if you want to try and get something from the liquidator for any outstanding Contractual PILON.

    If you are entitled to redundancy : claim from the stat scheme for the redundancy you can get there (479/week x 3 weeks).
    Up to you if you want to try and get something from the liquidator for any outstanding Contractual Redundancy left owing after you've recovered some from the statutory scheme.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Yeah I pretty much gathered I would get sweet FA from the company.
    Its good to know I can claim statutory notice though. Thank you for that

    I'm worried that the figure they have put on the P45 would bugger up any claim

    Am I focusing on this too much?


  15. #15
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S6Bint View Post
    Yeah I pretty much gathered I would get sweet FA from the company.
    Its good to know I can claim statutory notice though. Thank you for that
    You can't.
    You've had more already paid to you by the company than you could claim for statutory notice. You won't get anything for statutory notice pay.

    I phrased this previously as:
    Quote Originally Posted by BazzaS View Post
    The point you'll be able to see from that table is that your actual pay received (even 1 month or 2 months) exceeds the stat PILON (2 weeks), so no point in going for that from the stat scheme, as you'll get nowt extra.

    ..........

    You've already had more than 2 weeks PILON paid, so forget about PILON from the statutory scheme.



    Quote Originally Posted by S6Bint View Post
    I'm worried that the figure they have put on the P45 would bugger up any claim

    Am I focusing on this too much?
    Probably.
    It won't make a difference to Stat PILON : you won't get that
    It won't make a difference to Stat redundancy : you should get that.

    It might make a difference to contractual PILON but it will be at best marginal (if anything!) due to 'pennies in the pound'.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Ok I think I understand

    Thanks again for your help


  17. #17
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Fringer View Post
    Hi all

    Someone has just told me about this site and said it's the best place for advice
    I wonder if anyone can help me please

    The company I last worked at have just started liquidation proceedings. I was made redundant a month before this happened and so I have only received 1 months pay in lieu
    My query is I've received a P45 from them but the pay to date figure states 2 months pay
    They say their accountants said it's right as it's what I've earned - but I never received it and now I have to wait to see if there's any money to pay creditors who are beneficial into the continuity of the running of the business before I will get anything
    Is this right?
    Update

    I had a tribunal of which it was found in my favour and the company ordered to pay me redundancy however, the company is now in liquidation... BUT

    I was told that my P45 figure states what I would have earned up until the end of May. I was also told unoffically by the ops manager that the new owner was paying staffs wages for May although under the old company.
    I have today been sent a pay slip of mine for the month of May that I never received the payment for!

    Surely this proves that the company director was acting dishonestly and the new owner who paid every one elses wages should have paid mine as well?


  18. #18
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    wait ad see if you get paid first. The liability for the payment will have passed over to the new company unless companies house decide thst the directors are personally liable for the debts (rare)


  19. #19
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ericsbrother View Post
    The liability for the payment will have passed over to the new company unless companies house decide thst the directors are personally liable for the debts (rare)
    That's not likely to be correct unless the "new owner" that Fringer refers to has bought the actual company OP worked for by acquiring its share capital. That seems highly unlikely given that it was already in liquidation. More likely the so-called "new owners" have bought premises and assets from the liquidator and either absorbed it into their existing company or created a new one. In which case the "new owner" is not liable for the payment of unpaid wages by the company that is now in liquidation. That liability remains with the liquidators but only insofar as there are sufficient funds to pay the wages (+ of course what is payable under the government scheme linked to earlier).

    BTW Companies House has no power to decide if a director is personally liable in insolvency. That's a matter for the courts.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

    Is it worth me getting a solicitor?

    I sent a message to the ops manager recently as she has now left the company and we were supposed to be friends.
    She got nasty with me and said I wasn't entitled to the pay as I should have been sacked for poor performance!
    Never once was I spoken to about poor performance in the 2 years I was there.
    I did refuse to have anything to do with the directors false invoicing and wrote that in a letter before I left.
    The fact he was changing invoices figures and then uploading them to the wrong account with the factoring company in order to get a draw down.
    I think by her putting that in a text to me they're gonna try and blame me for it as they have a case on going with a huge company they had over and owe 150k to



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