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Hello,

 

Need some help with the above named company.

 

We own our home on a "Freehold" - there is no mortgage on the property. It is in our name and we have no finance against the property. It is a house and stands on its own land detached.

 

We live in an area that has a property management company who is named on the deeds and within the covenants.

 

We moved into the property seven years ago from new build and there has never been a previous owner except of course the developer.

 

Each year a company (various named companies) but the most recent called HML Guthrie has been invoicing for the service charges (or the part of, each property is due to pay - in our case £150.00 per year) but has always been in the wrong name - despite Land Registry having the correct property owners names since moving in.

 

I personally have written to the actual maintenance company and advised them that it is in the incorrect name and it has never been changed. This has been done 3 times over the years and I still have the letters sent, each one referencing the previous dated ones, however, they have not been sent recorded delivery but it would be very odd for three to not reach their destinations and even more so, they had return address labels on them, 2 I am sure about.

 

I advised the property maintenance company that until such time as they put the change in place they would not be paid as we would not pay on an account in the wrong name. It then got left and we haven't heard from them for around 3 years.

 

Recently (two to three weeks back) we have received yet another letter in the wrong name but from HML Guthrie and then within a few days we received a demand for payment from PDC with a document to fill out asking for our bank details and mortgage numbers. Obviously we won't be doing that and we have no mortgage but seems they want to levy the charges against a mortgage, may be standard practice?

 

I got in touch with PDC and advised them that it was in the wrong name and that HML Guthrie will also be advised.

 

We then receive a letter from HML Guthrie with a request for payment on it for the back monies and extortionate charges (details below) in our name which they have acquired from Land Registry.

 

31/03/15 - £600.00 - Arrears

01/04/15 - £150.00 - Charge 01/04 - 31/03/16

10/02/16 - £96.00 - Arrears Collection Fee

14/07/16 - £150.00 - Charge 01/04 - 31/03/17

18/11/16 - £36.00 - Arrears Management Fee

21/03/17 - £150.00 - Charge - 01/04 - 31/03/18

30/03/17 - £180.00 - Instruction Fee

30/03/17 - £168.00 - Debt Collection Fee

 

£1530.00 - Total

 

All the charges were previously sent out in the wrong name.

 

I have written to the Debt Collection people and advised them they will get no monies based on knowledge I have got from reading some posts here with DCA'.

 

I have also asked HML Guthrie to provide proof of their right to collect the monies on behalf of the management company, such as an agreement showing they have such rights. They (HML) are not mentioned in the deeds but the management company is and we have no issue with paying the charge although we strongly deny owing them for previous charges when not in our names and certainly not the ridiculous charges they have levied onto the invoice for silly things such as arrears management fees and instruction fees etc...

 

HML have failed and downright refused to provide proof of right to collect and at this point we refuse to pay monies to a company we have no real proof of who they are. It has been suggested to ask our neighbours but this is beyond us doing the work for them now.

 

Obviously you will see the amount of frustration these people (for want of using a different word) have caused us.

 

We are now being chased constantly by email, they don't have telephone details but they have been told to put everything in writing via Royal Mail.

 

Can someone please offer some help and advice here. Surely they can't get away with this and there must be some way of stopping them?

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Thread moved to Residential/Freehold Issues Forum..please continue to post here to your thread.

 

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have you checked that these companies ARE actually doing the maintenance they say they do.

 

supposed property or land maintenance its a VERY VERY big SCA*M is certain area.

 

if you've not paid and you owe it [talk to your neighbours do they pay £150 a year too?]

 

then yes pay the maintenance but you are under NO LEGAL OBLIGATION to pay any bogus fees.

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thank you. We have no issue with the fee being payable. I am sure the neighbours do pay it to these people (HML) and will check.

 

What about the issue with the incorrect account details and also the amounts from previous years. We have tried to get them to resolve the name on the account and they have ignored us. Not wanting to pay previous charges to a company who by their own words only took over the responsibility for collecting a couple of years ago. I have only just remembered this from an email trail so I apologise for misleading anyone here.

 

Would it be a good idea to write again to these people (sent recorded)? I would rather not pay them for periods when they were not responsible. I will also check what work they do as well as mentioned.

 

It has been suggested that this could delay any future house sale we may wish to make, anyone know how we would stand legally for back monies they say we owe? Also, we are happy to pay from now on, just not on previous. Is court action likely or is that a DCA trying their best to intimidate again?

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DCA cant do court only the owner of the debt can

 

so this is HML?

 

no harm in you writing to them and asking them to produce bills for each year

 

yes I agree

past years where they weren't? the provider does seem suspect.

 

becareful on the additional charges

read this

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?444651-HLM-Property-Management-Administration-charges

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks, that does go on about "leasehold" though and we are Freehold and have no landlord or company providing maintenance to our home. Having not entered into an agreement with HML Guthrie I am wondering if they have a right to collect at all. Our management company is a different one they claim they collect on behalf of.

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Those links look very helpful. Thanks.

 

I will go through them in more detail later today. They claim the fee is for children's parks then they said it was for ground maintenance and that's after they claimed they provided maintenance to our property for the freeholder (which would be us)....

 

I don't think they have a clue what the charge is for and I cannot find anywhere in the Covenant about a specific charge or anything to do with late fees. It does state at their discretion but that is the maintenance companies discretion, not HML Guthrie. Just quickly picking up on a post, they can only charge for work they have done, then they must be able to show that they have done it. I wonder if this can be something that can be requested under a SAR / FOI?

 

On the actual "Application for Payment" HML have sent out after changing the account into the right names it goes on about a lease but we don't have one. I have tried to explain this to them and get nowhere. They are aware the property is freehold, after they checked.

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trying to fleece you.

you need all this in writing too

no phonecalls!!

 

only the company that has supposedly done this work are whom you converse with

ignore any DCA or their fake/tame paper only solicitors

 

they are NOT BAILIFFS and have

NO SUCH LEGAL POWERS.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I'll pop a letter together (again) and i'll post it up here and if you guys would have a read over it and identify any errors or mistakes I may make / any ideas you have I would be grateful if you would read it.

 

It'll be in a day or so as I'm bogged down with work but I will come back.

 

It does state in our Covenants that there is a maintenance charge and it is payable to "C..... G Maintenance Company Limited".

 

Just been digging and it seems that the address for C..... G..... Maintenance Company is actually the same as HML Andertons which seems to be an arm of the same company.

 

I recall somewhere a few years back that they made contact (in the wrong name) and they were advised accordingly.

 

I'm questioning myself now but it seems like they are using different arms of the same company to make collections.

 

I Both companies reside at the same address of 94 Park Lane.

 

After looking at this more closely, they have made contact in the past under PR Gibbs & Company Limited.

 

I can't figure out what they are trying to do here.

 

I will get this letter drafted and send it to all the addresses and see what they come back with.

 

This looks like one big con to me now.

 

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06235096/officers

 

http://www.thehmlgroup.co.uk/find-your-local-hml/andertons/

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi

 

The first link is for a company

- Cuerden Grange Management

- since this company is currently showing as a dormant company it cannot make any charges or collect any payments, and does not need to prepare any accounts as it has no assets or liabilities.

 

the question to ask is how can another company collect payments on behalf of a dormant company, sounds like they are just pocketing the money!

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the reason for adding all the unlawful late payment fees and other such tosh is to get the total sum above the level they can instruct high court bailiff if they win a claim in the county court.

 

Even if you owed the actual maintenance fees that would be too low a sum for HCEO action hence the inventive accounting.

 

It also makes it more likely they will try a claim as they think that it is worth the risk whereas suing you for just the fees doesn't profit them.

 

If the company is dormant the covenant may lapse by dereliction but that is far from a certainty but may be worth asking a property lawyer if you have reason to ask them anything else.

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks for responding on this. I've just come back to it as it they (Property Debt Collection) have just tried to make contact again via email.

 

Not worried about the email.

That's easily dealt with I think but your comment has sparked interest which made me check the company details for Cuerden Grange Management Company Limited.

 

 

You mentioned it is "dormant" but I have found that it is listed as "non trading"

- I'm not sure but is that the same as dormant?

If so, I wonder after all the research I have been doing if PDC have any rights at all to even make a claim based on the fact that they do not own the so called debt and it would fall under the Law of Property Act - I'm not 100% sure on that hence asking here for varied advice.

 

So, at the moment, in my mind, PDC have acquired a debt which we state we do not owe to HML Guthrie as they are not the Management Company we have on our deeds, so it is possible that they have purchased the debt, seems to be the norm with debt collectors from the posts on here.

 

 

In which case, as HML have failed to provide us with a written contract that states they have the legal right to collect on behalf of Cuerden Grange MC HML also have no legal ownership of the debts they claim which we have also tracked back to several different companies who have tried it on in the past but have since had their directors resign and the companies close.

 

The one specifically I am referring to is PR Gibbs & Company Limited

- they have sent letters in the past with the same response from us and have then closed that company.

It looks like the companies are all inter-related so to speak by checking on companies house.

 

If you check the actual Companies House web site they are listed as "Active". All very confusing.

 

I want to add links but I'm not allowed.

Apologies for not being able to do that.

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2 things, what do the deeds say about all of this

and secondly,

have you ever received any letters assigning the debt from the first named company?

 

 

Random dca's demanding monies is not unusual,

they will claim when challenged that they are acting on behalf of xxx when xxx has offered no proof they are the creditor anyway and if you call their bluff they say they will return the matter to their client.

 

As they havent issued a claim or even a LBA yet all of this doesnt need a definitive answer to immediately so go back to the solicitors who did your conveyancing and get their notes if you dont have copies.

 

 

They may well charge you a few quid for digging them out and copying but they cant deny you them as you paid for them all those years ago

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send them an SAR?

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thank you for your very fast response.

 

The deeds state that there is a property management company called Cuerden Grange Management Company Limited and that they shall be the ones responsible for the collection of a maintenance charge, sadly, it also states that they can set it as they see fit!

 

No, we have never received any letter of transfer of ownership of the responsibility to collect. That is my big point, it's almost like asking someone to pay for something that never receive, own, have never viewed etc etc etc..... Just silly.

 

The first we heard from PDC was a letter asking us to fill out a mortgage form that allowed them to charge the amount onto the mortgage, we don't have one anyway as we own the property outright.

 

The solicitor who did our conveyancing at the time is no longer practising (I think they may have gone out of business) but the deeds were transferred into our name in 2010 (originally they were in the name of our parents) and the solicitor who dealt with that is my wifes brother.

 

I don't want to involve him unless I really really have to but we have a copy of the deeds here on my desk and I've gone through them 3 / 4 times now and there is no mention of HML Guthrie, PR Gibbs or anyone else for that matter.

 

We would be required and are required to pay our maintenance charge to Cuerden Grange Management Company Limited as per the details in the deeds so why without any written authorisation would we be paying a "random" company who just sends us a "request for payment" without actually knowing who they are.

 

Yes, our neighbours may pay them, but my point is and I am being a tad stubborn after 7 years of this, why would we pay a company who have no authority to collect or we have even heard of.

 

Like paying for a credit card we have never owned.

 

SAR to PDC / HML? Good thought.

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  • 1 month later...

So, received a letter today "letter before county court claim".

 

For the full amount of £1590.00 which is including the charges they added.

 

It says;

 

"Acting for: Cuerden Grange Management Co Ltd

 

We write further to our recent letters in connection with the outstanding Service Charge for the above property.

 

We note from our records the mount of £1590.00 remains outstanding. Should payment not be received within the next fourteen days it is our clients instruction to refer this matter to solicitors. The solicitors will issue proceedings in the County Court for failure to pay the outstanding sums together with any additional fees such as Court and solicitor costs.

 

We would draw to your attention the Civil Procedure Rules on Pre-Action Conduct Pro 1.1 (1) and in particular paragraph 4 of the Practice Direction concerning the Courts powers to impose sanctions for failure to comply with the Practice Direction.

 

Free independent advice and assistance can be obtained from a number of sources including national debtline on............

 

We look forward to receiving payment within the next fourteen days from the date of this letter.

 

Yours,

 

Scribble at PDC"

 

Anyone have any thoughts? Just another scare tactic letter?

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Acting for: Cuerden Grange Management Co Ltd

 

Reading through your threads it appears that you haven't received any communications from Cuerden Grange Management Co Ltd so far. Is that right?

 

You can write back to PDC and say that you've not received any communications from Cuerden and to refer the debt back to their client.

 

I'd be inclined to suggest they advise their client that if their client issues a correct bill to the correctly named people it will be promptly paid.

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tell PDC that you deny any debt to their client and they should refer the matter back to them.

 

The threatogram is full of the usual we recommend but as they have no powers to do anything it is all meaningless once you get beyond these words.

 

Cuerden Grange will then have to issue a proper letter before action stating what is owed and why

, something they have singularly failed to do so far.

 

Not being an active company they wont have what is called locus standi to take you to court without taking other action first

 

phone companies house and ask them if they have changed their status recently to active and you could also ask them about getting copy of their files/accounts (there is a fee) and take the opportunity to ask about what a dormant or non trading co is allowed to do.

 

As for the amount demanded

we already know that it includes unlawful charges/fees so the most you owe is £1200.

 

Let them know that you know should they actually respond properly.

 

A company will lose the chance to collect their money if they fail to mitigate their losses so refusal to show correct accounts mean they could lose the right to collect the actual amount due so it will be a risky venture for them to sue you

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Sorry Im late to the party, so is this a leasehold house or freehold house but there are still some service/estate charges to pay ?

 

If it was leasehold, there would be a lease, this is the contract and would stipulate the amounts to be paid and whether any extra admin fees can be added on.

 

Its not clear if this is leasehold,

in that case a lot of the protections such as valid demands for service charges, admin fees dont apply, but somewhere there must be some form of contract that means you must pay the amounts, otherwise the company involved couldnt sue you........

 

In a standard lease arrangement the contract is between you and the FH and only he has the right to sue you, he may though employ a managing agent for day to day admin, occasionally the lease is tripartite meaning all 3 parties are party to the lease.

 

Contracts involving leasehold houses or freehold houses that are party to some sort of maintenance contract are more complicated, this page - http://www.lease-advice.org/faq/what-are-the-implications-of-buying-a-leasehold-house/ MAY help.

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Remember IF it went to court they would have to show

 

a) That there is an agreement between you and the claimant where you agree to such charges

 

b) That the claimant has the right to such charges (it appears this should be the property management company named in the deeds, although if its like a lease, this can change and be sold on, my lease lists the original freeholder and original owner/leaseholder but this has changed many times over the years).

 

If they were sending initial demands to the wrong name it may be they could correct this now and the sums would be payable BUT any extra late payment fees clearly wouldnt be.

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  • 3 months later...

Hi,

 

Coming back to this now. Today a Court Summons has been issued in the name of the deed holder.

 

The Claimant is Cuerden Grange Management Company (Management Agent)

 

The property is FREEHOLD

 

Amounts Claimed are as follows;

 

Amount Claimed - £1590.00

Addtional Charge (they have added on to the charges prior to the court charges) £360.00 "Additional Charge"

 

Court Fee - £115.00

Legal Reps Fees - £80.00

 

Total: £2145.00

 

Charges levied by the Management Agent (HML Group)

 

Arrears - £600.00

Charge for Yr 15/16 - £150.00

Arrears Collection Fee - £96.00

Charge for Yr 16/17 - £150.00

Arrears Management Fee - £36.00

Charge for Yy 17/18 - £150.00

Instruction Fee - £180.00

Debt Collection Fee - £168.00

Claim Fee - 60.00

 

Particulars of Claim are 4 pages long.

 

The original Deed was signed and accepted by the actual property owner (a parent) who then passed away and the transfer was made to the present owner (daughter) - this was done in 2012.

 

There was another company who was appointed the managing agent called PR Gibbs (they were written to advising them of the change of ownership of the house at the time).

 

Nothing was heard back from PR Gibbs and the next letter that was received was from HML Guthrie who claimed to be the management agents but no notification of this was ever received by us.

 

Another letter was despatched to HML advising them of the change of ownership, change of name. HML continued to send out requests for payment up until the start of this thread but in the name of the previous owner. When challenged they then checked the Land Registry and changed the details on the account and issued bill for the last 7 years.

 

HML were then advised again in writing by email that the details were incorrect and that they had failed to change the name on the account and we would not be paying on an account in the name of another person.

 

HML then passed it to PDC who then started to send the letters for payment, of which we said no because (1) - we didn't know who they were and (2) - why would we pay someone who just writes to us for money.

 

A SAR was sent to HML and they responded with a pack of papers which was really only the communications between us and some internal communications in relation to the account.

 

A SAR was sent to PDC who have failed to respond (they signed for it and have cashed the postal order) - this is now with the ICO but they have only just got around to dealing with the case and we received an email from ICO only yesterday asking for the SAR and proof of postage so they can deal with PDC.

 

Today the Court Summons arrives.

 

Having read some of the threads I am going to acknowledge the claim and defend in full to give us some time.

 

Help from someone here in regards to submitting a defence and how to word it correctly would be helpful.

 

Could someone read over the above and also advise how I would get the Particulars of Claim to you rather than typing four pages.

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Follow upload

 

One PDF please

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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