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  1. #21

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    Quote Originally Posted by rdm2006 View Post
    Had reply today from the DVLA they requested the info on the 28th April. little bit late

    Appeal sent waiting for POPLAicon code now
    If they've got any sense, they'll just accept your appeal, no matter what you've written (yeah right!). Anything else is just going to be them throwing money down the drain.

    But, I'd expect the usual from the PPC. They'll (try to) tell you that the NTK was issued correctly and in line with the Code of Practice for AOS members and that "after careful consideration" they have decided to reject your appeal. Anyone else smell cows?


    As they had no reasonable cause to request your data from the DVLA, there's also a complaint there waiting to happen to the BPA (for breach of the AOS CoP), the DVLA (for their breach of the KADOE contract), the ICOicon (for the breach of the DPA against both the PPC & the DVLA) and a potential court claim for your Daughter against the PPC for the misuse of her personal dataicon.

    We could use your help
    PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING


    Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.

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  2. #22

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    OK, get a complaint in to the DVLAand the ICOicon about CEL abusing the KADOE contractin accessing your data when they knew that there could be no liability on your part so no lawful reason to do so.


  3. #23

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    Well Surprise, Surprise, the appeal was unsuccessful.

    Is there a standard letter for a POPLAicon appeal when they didnt request the info from the DVLA within the correct time

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  4. #24

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    Wonder if i should claim compensation for a data breach lol


    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...tection-Breach

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  5. #25

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    There's not really a standard letter for Hoopla, it's all 'click based' now on their website, unless you want to go down the paper & stamp route? Not really necessary with Hoopla.

    Just select the appeal reason that fits best, I keep meaning to keep a track of these, but keep on forgetting.

    So, something along the lines of...

    My reason for appeal is that there can be no keeper liability as the operator has completely failed to follow the protocols of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    I was not the driver at the time in question.

    The date of the parking event was 05/04/2017
    The date of issue of the NTK was 03/05/2017 (uploadicon the NTK as part of your evidence to prove dates). Starting the clock from the day after the parking event that triggered this charge notice, this is 27 days. Well outside the 14 day limit afforded by the PoFA 2012.

    The operator did not even request the keeper details from the DVLA until 28/04/2017 (confirmed by the DVLA themselves (upload the letter from the DVLA as part of your evidence)) which, starting the clock from the day after the parking event that triggered this charge notice is 22 days later, which proves that the PoFA 2012 has not been complied with and therefore no keeper liability can be created.

    I therefore request that this appeal be allowed.
    As for the breach of the Data Protection Act, if POPLAicon decide against you and CEL are silly enough to take court action against you, I'd definitely put in a counter claim and hit them in the pocket (again). The transcript of that CEL case in the other thread has been ordered and will be online as soon as it's received, so that'll be useful to have a copy of if they're that stupid!

    We already know that they are that greedy, but it's whether or not they'd be happy to pay you another chunk of petty cash once you've won your counter claim

    We could use your help
    PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING


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  6. #26

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    OK POPLAicon appeal done, lets wait and see Ha Ha

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  7. #27

    Default

    OK this is CEL's reply to the POPLAicon appeal.

    12. The Notice was issued as the Appellant exceeded the maximum 3 hours free parking allowance. Please note that the Appellant does not dispute the duration of stay within the car park.

    13. Please note that the Appellant, who is also the Registered Keeper, admitted to being the driver in her original appeal (copy attached) stating “… I would like to invoke your appeals procedure as I was in the gymicon…” and should be held liable as such.

    14. We refer you to the attached photographic evidence of the vehicle, captured by our Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras, entering the car park at 15:54:22 and departing at 20:08:51 (total duration of 4 hours 14 minutes).

    15. Signage in the car park clearly states ‘3 HOURS FREE PARKING NO RETURN WITHIN 1 HOUR’ and ‘If you exceed the free parking allowance… you agree to pay £100.’

    16. There were adequate warning signs in place, including an entrance sign, as can be seen from the below image and attached site plan, and drivers have an obligation to check for signage when parking on private land, it does not need to be placed directly in the position where they parked. They simply must be placed throughout the site so that drivers are given the chance to read them (BPA Code of Practice, 18.3).

    17. We are not relying on the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, as the Appellant has admitted that he was the driver of the vehicle. Please note that Section 21.6 and 21.7 of the BPA Code state that the Operator has up to 28 days to apply to the DVLA, and once the registered keeper’s details have been obtained, the Operator has a further 14 days in which to send the PCN.

    18. The Appellant’s details as the registered keeper were obtained from the DVLA on 27/04/2017, and the PCN was sent 7 days later on 03/05/2017.
    it is now asking for our comments?

    This is what the BPA have in their code of practice

    20.11 The Notice to Keeper serves three purposes:
    • it invites the keeper to pay the unpaid parking chargeicon
    • if the keeper was not the driver it invites the keeper
    to tell you who the driver was, and
    • it starts the 28-day time period after which the keeper
    may become liable to pay the unpaid parking chargeicon.

    20.12 An effective ‘Notice to Keeper’ within the meaning of
    POFA 2012, must meet the requirements of Schedule 4
    of the Act. In particular:
    • paragraphs 6 (1) (a) and 8 (2), if you have already given an
    effective Notice to Driver at the time of the parking event
    • paragraphs 6 (1) (b) and 9, if you have not given an
    effective Notice to Driver.

    20.13 You should see the relevant part of Schedule 4 of POFA
    2012 to make sure you know:
    • what contents you need to include in the Notice to
    Keeper (paragraph 8(2) or 9(2))
    • the methods of serving the Notice to Keeper
    (paragraph 8(4) or 9(4))
    • the deadlines by which the Notice to Keeper must be
    served, which differ depending on whether or not a
    Notice to Driver was issued first (paragraphs 8(5)
    or 9(5))
    • the evidence (if any) you must include with the
    Notice to Keeper (paragraph 10).
    So (as far as i can see) they did not comply to the code am i right?

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  8. #28

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    Isnt it Fraudulent Misrepresentation to claim to be part of an association/organisation and then not follow its code of practice?

    HTH (Hope This Helps) RDM2006

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  9. #29

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    nope
    its simply an oldboys club.


    dx

    PLEASE REFRAIN FROM HITTING 'REPLY WITH QUOTE' IF YOU ARE SIMPLY REPLYING TO THE LAST POST IN A THREAD..JUST TYPE!!
    it makes a thread twice as long to scroll through..save data costs
    If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread
    DX
    RIP Martin3030

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  10. #30

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    This is what I am thinking of replying with

    The Signage says that the carpark is operated by Civil Enforcement Ltd and gives the web address as www.ce-service.co.uk.
    If you visit this site it states that they are an approved operator and member of the BPA, if you then go to the BPA website it has a code of conduct for members(version 6).

    If you search for a “Notice to keeper” it gives the following description (page 4)

    “Notice to Keeper means a notice, addressed to the
    registered keeper of a vehicle, which meets the conditions
    in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,
    paragraphs 8 or 9. A Notice to Keeper can be given
    either as the first step in recovering a parking chargeicon,
    or as the second step after giving a Notice to Driver. A
    Notice to Keeper must be given if an operator wants to
    recover parking chargesicon from the keeper”

    If you then go to page 12 of this code of conduct it gives the following instructions for a correctly served notice to keeper.

    “20.13 You should see the relevant part of Schedule 4 of POFA
    2012 to make sure you know:
    • what contents you need to include in the Notice to
    Keeper (paragraph 8(2) or 9(2))
    • the methods of serving the Notice to Keeper
    (paragraph 8(4) or 9(4))
    • the deadlines by which the Notice to Keeper must be
    served, which differ depending on whether or not a
    Notice to Driver was issued first (paragraphs 8(5)
    or 9(5))
    • the evidence (if any) you must include with the
    Notice to Keeper (paragraph 10).”

    The contract which I entered into was that I would abide by the carparks rules and should I fail, this contract then ensured that I would be treated in accordance with the BPA code of conduct.

    The BPA code of conduct clearly states that the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (shown above) should be followed.

    I have entered into no other contract, No signage (see copy provided by CEL) on the carpark states that although CEL are a member of the BPA they do not follow its code of conduct in Full, therefore, I have not entered into any other contract with any other method of redress.

    CEL have stated that they are not relying on the POFA as the appellant has admitted he was the driver.

    CEL have stated that they are using the ANPR, therefore, no notice to driver has been issued, (at no point have CEL stated that a notice to driver was issued) so the appellant (she not he) could not possibly have admitted being the driver prior to the notice to keeper being issued.

    I, therefore, reiterate that the correct procedure for issuing a notice to keeper has not been followed and due to this there can be no keeper liability under the POFA.
    Does this sound OK

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  11. #31

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    oops - CEL have stated that they are not relying on the POFA as the appellant has admitted he was the driver. should read

    CEL have stated that they are not relying on the POFA as the appellant has admitted he was the driver. How does I was at the gymicon translate into I was the driver? The car may have been in for a service and I may have asked that the car be dropped off there and the keys brought to me!


    HTH (Hope This Helps) RDM2006

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  12. #32

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    balance of probabilities and the fact you mentioned yourself at all suggests that you were in the vehicle and thus in "control" of it.

    As for replying, dont bother, they wont take any notice and you should know that when you are in a hole you should stop digging.

    Let them do their worse because anything you say wont change their course of action. Yes they do take people to court but in your case it is not likely, though they may threaten all sorts of things. Reason I say this is they know that their chances of winning are 50:50 at best and therefore the chances are it will cost them more to sue than statistically they can make.

    They normally add hundreds in imaginary costs to allow for this on the ones they do proceed with. It is a numbers game and you are not in a position to do anything other than cost them more money by sitting tight and letting them waste theirs.

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  13. #33

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    big surprise Hoopla say you gotta pay.

    saying that as my daughter was the driver therefore they are not relying on the POFA.

    To me they issued a notce to keeper as they did not know who the driver was and that notice to keeper was not issued correctly.

    perhaps i'm confused lol

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  14. #34

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    how do they know she was driving at the time?

    Now,
    there is some confusion in this posting as you refer yourself on occasion about a posting that is primarily about your daughter's car so be absolutely clear about this, who has corresponded and in what capacity.


    This is why it is always better to get whoever is the person who gets the NTK to do all of the running with these as the sdvice will rely a lot on their position and the POFA.

    However it doesnt create a liabilty where none exists and as mentioned previously CEL had to fork out £500 plus costs for trying their luck in another case and then getting clobbered for a DPA breach.


    As your daughter's details were gathered too late they have no leg to stand on in this respect becasue if they know who the driver was they wouldnt have to obtain the keeper details, would they?

    POPLAicon are making more and more of these rather " surprising" determinations that are not base in law so not a big deal as it means nothing in the long run but it does stretch the agony out a bit longer


  15. #35

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    I have been dealing with this for my daughter

    HTH (Hope This Helps) RDM2006

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  16. #36

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    with them or just here,
    the latter bit is understood but who has written to the parking co and POPLAicon and in what capacity?

    Reason why I make this point is there are other threads on here where dad does things on behalf of daughter and she then fails to take the matter seriously and lose numerous court claims because of laziness (dad will dig me out of the mire).

    Working with the first party as we hear everything and nothing gets lost in translation is much easier and it tends to sink in better


  17. #37

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    I have done all the paper work here and with cel & POPLAicon

    HTH (Hope This Helps) RDM2006

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  18. #38

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    in what capacity?


  19. #39

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    not sure what you mean by "in what capacity"

    I wrote everything as if she was doing it herself, apart from on here. If that is what you mean!!!

    HTH (Hope This Helps) RDM2006

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  20. #40

    Default Re: CEL ANPR PCN - Alexandra Retail Centre Tunstall Stoke On Trent

    that is what I meant.
    If you had written on her behalf in your own name then they could rightfully tell you to get lost so it is important that your fingerprints do not end up on things


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