OK POPLA appeal done, lets wait and see Ha Ha

OK this is CEL's reply to the popla appeal.

12. The Notice was issued as the Appellant exceeded the maximum 3 hours free parking allowance. Please note that the Appellant does not dispute the duration of stay within the car park.

 

13. Please note that the Appellant, who is also the Registered Keeper, admitted to being the driver in her original appeal (copy attached) stating “… I would like to invoke your appeals procedure as I was in the gym…” and should be held liable as such.

 

14. We refer you to the attached photographic evidence of the vehicle, captured by our Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras, entering the car park at 15:54:22 and departing at 20:08:51 (total duration of 4 hours 14 minutes).

 

15. Signage in the car park clearly states ‘3 HOURS FREE PARKING NO RETURN WITHIN 1 HOUR’ and ‘If you exceed the free parking allowance… you agree to pay £100.’

 

16. There were adequate warning signs in place, including an entrance sign, as can be seen from the below image and attached site plan, and drivers have an obligation to check for signage when parking on private land, it does not need to be placed directly in the position where they parked. They simply must be placed throughout the site so that drivers are given the chance to read them (BPA Code of Practice, 18.3).

 

17. We are not relying on the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, as the Appellant has admitted that he was the driver of the vehicle. Please note that Section 21.6 and 21.7 of the BPA Code state that the Operator has up to 28 days to apply to the DVLA, and once the registered keeper’s details have been obtained, the Operator has a further 14 days in which to send the PCN.

 

18. The Appellant’s details as the registered keeper were obtained from the DVLA on 27/04/2017, and the PCN was sent 7 days later on 03/05/2017.

This is what the BPA have in their code of practice

20.11 The Notice to Keeper serves three purposes:

• it invites the keeper to pay the unpaid parking charge

• if the keeper was not the driver it invites the keeper

to tell you who the driver was, and

• it starts the 28-day time period after which the keeper

may become liable to pay the unpaid parking charge.

 

20.12 An effective ‘Notice to Keeper’ within the meaning of

POFA 2012, must meet the requirements of Schedule 4

of the Act. In particular:

• paragraphs 6 (1) (a) and 8 (2), if you have already given an

effective Notice to Driver at the time of the parking event

• paragraphs 6 (1) (b) and 9, if you have not given an

effective Notice to Driver.

 

20.13 You should see the relevant part of Schedule 4 of POFA

2012 to make sure you know:

• what contents you need to include in the Notice to

Keeper (paragraph 8(2) or 9(2))

• the methods of serving the Notice to Keeper

(paragraph 8(4) or 9(4))

• the deadlines by which the Notice to Keeper must be

served, which differ depending on whether or not a

Notice to Driver was issued first (paragraphs 8(5)

or 9(5))

• the evidence (if any) you must include with the

Notice to Keeper (paragraph 10).

Isnt it Fraudulent Misrepresentation to claim to be part of an association/organisation and then not follow its code of practice?

nope

its simply an oldboys club.

dx

This is what I am thinking of replying with

The Signage says that the carpark is operated by Civil Enforcement Ltd and gives the web address as http://www.ce-service.co.uk.

If you visit this site it states that they are an approved operator and member of the BPA, if you then go to the BPA website it has a code of conduct for members(version 6).

 

If you search for a “Notice to keeper” it gives the following description (page 4)

 

“Notice to Keeper means a notice, addressed to the

registered keeper of a vehicle, which meets the conditions

in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,

paragraphs 8 or 9. A Notice to Keeper can be given

either as the first step in recovering a parking charge,

or as the second step after giving a Notice to Driver. A

Notice to Keeper must be given if an operator wants to

recover parking charges from the keeper”

 

If you then go to page 12 of this code of conduct it gives the following instructions for a correctly served notice to keeper.

 

“20.13 You should see the relevant part of Schedule 4 of POFA

2012 to make sure you know:

• what contents you need to include in the Notice to

Keeper (paragraph 8(2) or 9(2))

• the methods of serving the Notice to Keeper

(paragraph 8(4) or 9(4))

• the deadlines by which the Notice to Keeper must be

served, which differ depending on whether or not a

Notice to Driver was issued first (paragraphs 8(5)

or 9(5))

• the evidence (if any) you must include with the

Notice to Keeper (paragraph 10).”

 

The contract which I entered into was that I would abide by the carparks rules and should I fail, this contract then ensured that I would be treated in accordance with the BPA code of conduct.

 

The BPA code of conduct clearly states that the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (shown above) should be followed.

 

I have entered into no other contract, No signage (see copy provided by CEL) on the carpark states that although CEL are a member of the BPA they do not follow its code of conduct in Full, therefore, I have not entered into any other contract with any other method of redress.

 

CEL have stated that they are not relying on the POFA as the appellant has admitted he was the driver.

 

CEL have stated that they are using the ANPR, therefore, no notice to driver has been issued, (at no point have CEL stated that a notice to driver was issued) so the appellant (she not he) could not possibly have admitted being the driver prior to the notice to keeper being issued.

 

I, therefore, reiterate that the correct procedure for issuing a notice to keeper has not been followed and due to this there can be no keeper liability under the POFA.

Does this sound OK

oops - CEL have stated that they are not relying on the POFA as the appellant has admitted he was the driver. should read

CEL have stated that they are not relying on the POFA as the appellant has admitted he was the driver. How does I was at the gym translate into I was the driver? The car may have been in for a service and I may have asked that the car be dropped off there and the keys brought to me!

balance of probabilities and the fact you mentioned yourself at all suggests that you were in the vehicle and thus in "control" of it.

As for replying, dont bother, they wont take any notice and you should know that when you are in a hole you should stop digging.

Let them do their worse because anything you say wont change their course of action. Yes they do take people to court but in your case it is not likely, though they may threaten all sorts of things. Reason I say this is they know that their chances of winning are 50:50 at best and therefore the chances are it will cost them more to sue than statistically they can make.

They normally add hundreds in imaginary costs to allow for this on the ones they do proceed with. It is a numbers game and you are not in a position to do anything other than cost them more money by sitting tight and letting them waste theirs.

big surprise Hoopla say you gotta pay.

saying that as my daughter was the driver therefore they are not relying on the POFA.

To me they issued a notce to keeper as they did not know who the driver was and that notice to keeper was not issued correctly.

perhaps i'm confused lol

how do they know she was driving at the time?

Now,

there is some confusion in this posting as you refer yourself on occasion about a posting that is primarily about your daughter's car so be absolutely clear about this, who has corresponded and in what capacity.

This is why it is always better to get whoever is the person who gets the NTK to do all of the running with these as the sdvice will rely a lot on their position and the POFA.

However it doesnt create a liabilty where none exists and as mentioned previously CEL had to fork out £500 plus costs for trying their luck in another case and then getting clobbered for a DPA breach.

As your daughter's details were gathered too late they have no leg to stand on in this respect becasue if they know who the driver was they wouldnt have to obtain the keeper details, would they?

POPLA are making more and more of these rather " surprising" determinations that are not base in law so not a big deal as it means nothing in the long run but it does stretch the agony out a bit longer

I have been dealing with this for my daughter

with them or just here,

the latter bit is understood but who has written to the parking co and POPLA and in what capacity?

Reason why I make this point is there are other threads on here where dad does things on behalf of daughter and she then fails to take the matter seriously and lose numerous court claims because of laziness (dad will dig me out of the mire).

Working with the first party as we hear everything and nothing gets lost in translation is much easier and it tends to sink in better

I have done all the paper work here and with cel & popla

in what capacity?

not sure what you mean by "in what capacity"

I wrote everything as if she was doing it herself, apart from on here. If that is what you mean!!!

that is what I meant.

If you had written on her behalf in your own name then they could rightfully tell you to get lost so it is important that your fingerprints do not end up on things

ok this has raised its ugly head again.

CEL are saying that the notice was not issued under POFA can they do this and what are the rules and regulations for this if they can???

do what?

dx

ignore pofa

yep you already knew that in post 1

understand, they wil say anything to get you to pay up, it is just that they cant lawfully claim a bean so have to rely on lies and threats to make a living

ok court papers have arrived today can anyone help in filling this in and a counter claim for misuse of data

Also will this be heard locally it says northampton on the papers

please complete this:

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?465231-Received-a-Court-Claim-From-A-Private-parking-Speculative-invoice-How-To-Deal-With-It-HERE***Updated-Aug-2016***

and no you cant counterclaim

and it will be transferred to the defendants local court IF it ever get s that far..

dx

Name of claimant - Civil Enforcement Ltd

Name of Solicitors - cant find this it is signed (printed) civil enforcement ltd (claimants legal representative)???

issue date 01/10/2018

POC

1.Claim for monies relating to a parking charge for parking in a private car park managed by the claimant in breach of the terms + conditions (T+Cs).

2.Drivers are allowed to park in accordance with T+Cs of use.

3.ANPR cameras and or manual patrols are used to monitor vehicles entering + exiting the site.

4.debt + damages claimed

the sum of 236.00

violation date 05/04/2017

time in 15:54

time out 20:08

pcn ref xxxxxxxx

car registration xxxxxxx

car park alexandra retail centre.

Total due 236.00 (ref:www.ce-service.co.uk or tel 01158225020)

5.The claimant claims the sum of 263.98 for monies relating to a parking charge per above including 27.98 interest puruant to s.69 of the county courts act 1984 rate 8.00% pa from dates above to 28/09/18

Same rate to judgment or (sooner) payment

daily rate to judgement - 0.05 total debt and interest due 263.98

added to this is 25.00 court fee and 50.00 legal representatives cost total claim value 338.98

has counter claiming stopped now?

and thanks for the help

pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform.

.

register as an individual

note the long gateway number given

then log in

.

select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box.

.

then using the details required from the claimform

.

defend all

leave jurisdiction unticked.

click thru to the end

confirm and exit MCOL.

.

get a CPR 31:14 request running to CEL

.https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486334-CPR-31.14-Request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-PPC-(-Private-Land-Parking-Court-Claim)

type your name ONLY

no need to sign anything

.

you DO NOT await the return of paperwork.

you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform.

………..

forget counterclaiming..not sure where you ever got that from on PPCclaims???

 

forget counterclaiming..not sure where you ever got that from on PPCclaims???

See the link on post #2