Thank you for your time and advice.

We're looking for some general advice on this issue regarding my partner who is off work with depression caused by her workplace. The employer has told us they will visit this Thursday to "discuss her absence".

Here's a bit of the back story:

Mt partner is a Cleaner. She is off work due to depression, this was caused by her undergoing treatment for recurring miscarriages and her Manager moving her from a job she was happy in to another part of the company where it is very quiet, no interaction and a totally different world than where she had been.

My partner asked to be moved back but was told it is not possible. She thinks she was only moved because her Manager had to cover 6am to 7am as she couldn't get into work for 6am. Funnily enough, the person who took my partner's old position starts at 6am (!)

Events and Mismanagement that has led to my partner's Depression:

1. She was late for work twice when the buses here were effected by a huge amount of roadworks (which was front page news). Her bus simply didn't turn up two days in a row and she had to wait for an alternative bus (the following days she caught a taxi rather than lose her job). Both times she rang the Manager and let her know.

All seemed okay until over 2 weeks later when her Manager issued her with a stage 2 warning for absence (not even a 'late'!). Luckily I was able to speak directly with the city bus manager who kindly emailed a letter explaining the missing buses and her Manager took the warning off her record. It was like a letter from Mummy for not having a PE Kit!

2. A few days later (revenge?). My partner received a printed warning document detailing things that would need to be improved in her cleaning duties. These included a set of stairs that experience 24-hour high traffic from hundreds of staff which she was warned were dusty and dirty.

She was told another inspection of her work would take place on 4th April and if it wasn't satisfactory a PIP Procedure (warnings that can lead to dismissal) would be put in place..skipping the written warnings stages completely!

Two weeks later she had the Thursday 23rd and Friday 24th March 2017 off as holiday. My partner went back on Monday 27th March 2017 and was called her into her Manager's office and told that the showers had body-fat in them, even though she had worked hard to make everything A1 before her days off. Her Manager then said "Just because you signed that warning, doesn't mean you can F?cKing slack off anywhere else!" (Bullying?).

3. Two days later (29th March 2017), My partner had a small operation to investigate the fibroids the hospital believe have caused her recurring miscarriages. She was not allowed this as unpaid leave and had to work before going to the hospital. She had to go work the day after the operation too.

On the day after the operation she was taken home by the people she cleaned for in FOST and they phoned my partner's Manager to complain; which no doubt will be mentioned in the absence meeting and my partner blamed for it!

Anyway, that date was 30th March which was the last day she worked and has been off with depression since.

4. On 24th April we received the letter saying they'll be coming to our home on 4th May 2017 to discuss her "illness, current health status, long term diagnosis, current abilities and when you might be fit to return to work. And also to gain authorisation to contact your GP for a medical report."

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We appreciate any advice you can give and for reading this long post.

• If you can advise on what we should do at the 'Meeting to Discuss Absence' and whether we should print off this post and discuss it or if that would probably mean them finding an excuse to get rid of my partner?
  
• She has had depression all the time she's worked there (10 years) and never had long-term sick so could they sack her for depression knowing she has it anyway (last year she had a miscarriage and went sick with depression)
  
• Would she have the right to be asked to be moved and, if so, would they have to move her to a post that has the same hours/amount of hours?
  
• Staff who have complained in the past have always ended up sacked
  
• Finally, their letter says she can have a member of staff/Union Rep (unfortunately not in a union) at the meeting but I intend to be their. It is our home so can they say I can't be there?
  
• We will also be recording the meeting, as it is our home do we legally have to tell them so?
  

There is already far too much information on this post that identifies the employer and individuals- if the employers get hold of it then they can use it to dismiss on the grounds of bringing the employer into disrepute. One of the moderators needs to anonymise it, please; and no you absolutely do not show the employer the thread!

They can dismiss for sickness absence, regardless of the reason for the sickness. Not immediately, no, but if they follow a legally correct prices and she does not return to work, then yes, she can be issued.

She has no right to be moved. She can ask, but they are not obliged to agree, and they do not have to protect her hours or the amount she works. She asks for another role, and she had to take what is offered, or not move.

I can't comment on cases I know nothing about.

No you have no right to be there. Yes, you can insist since it is your home - and they can insist that she attend a meeting at their offices instead. You may ask to be there as a reasonable adjustment because of her mental health problems.

You have no right to covertly record something just because it is your home. You may record something provided you do not share it with anyone else, and only for your own use. If you do otherwise, she faces dismissal for making a covert recording - loss of trust and confidence would probably be the grounds.

It must be the week for it because this is about the sixth time I've said it this week.

Proving that an employer is responsible for work related mental injury is exceptionally difficult.

They don't seem to be a particularly nice bunch of people to work for, but that doesn't mean that they have done much that is legally wrong here.

It is an employees responsibility to attend work at the right time

- there is no reason why an employer must accept any excuse, good or not, for lateness.

However they did take the warning back - they didn't need to.

It is equally difficult to dispute an employers judgement on performance

- in law the employer is permitted to run their business as they wish and to set whatever standards they desire.

There is a presumption that employers do not unreasonably set those standards, and it is almost impossible to overturn any dismissal based on performance.

An employment tribunal will not replace the employers judgement on performance with their own.

And I am afraid that there is no right to either paid or unpaid time off work.

That only leaves swearing at her.

It shouldn't have happened, no. But it isn't enough to construct a case of bullying.

As I said, they sound an unpleasant bunch, but honestly, there isn't a lot to base any legal care on.

They appear to be able to stay inside the the law - unfortunately it isn't that hard.

What do you think being moved to another position will achieve for her?

And if they refused such a request, what is your position - what do you want to happen?

And if they refuse anything, what is your next step, do you think?

Ps I have messaged the site to ask that they edit your post to take out details.

Ps I have messaged the site to ask that they edit your post to take out details.

Thank you for the report, Sangie. I think I've anonymised everything.

HB

Thanks Honeybee. I suggest that you take out the word at the end of the sentence "Mt partner is a Cleaner working in the ...." There aren't a lot of those sorts of places!

Thank you Sangie, I'll do that.

HB

Sorry for the editing you had to do; I'll be more confidential in the future.

In reply to Sangie595's post (thanks), I feel that if she were moved to another part of the workplace her depression would improve; if they refuse to move her then I honestly can't see any favourable outcome. They'll probably just find an excuse to sack her anyway as that seems to be the way they work. It's shocking how little rights employess have, and how companies like this seem to always have the most rights; for instance take a look at this article where the employee swore once and got sacked, yet you say her boss can get away with it! Interesting, but these solicitors say it could be a case for constructive dismissal. Still, I guess it only works when the big mouth is the employee not the boss.

I'll post again once they've been.

Unfortunately, you are not wrong. Although, beginning utterly objective about it, if she wasn't able to do the hours required in the previous role, that is reasonable grounds for moving her to one where the hours suit her better. I know you said the manager didn't like it because they had to do the other hour. But really, that isn't unreasonable. And that is the rational that the employer will use. Employers can often be reasonably unreasonable!. It's an art form!

Let's see what they say. If they agree then you have a solution. If they don't, let's see if we can examine options. I wouldn't want to see her being sicker over this, and I'm sure you don't either. And that means something had to happen, and the options at least gives you a playing field to explore.

Ok, just to update you all, her supervisor and one other came to our house and talked a bit. They then got my partner to sign a form consenting the company to contact her Dr for her records. She saw her Dr yesterday who said he has refused to show them her records. I think this is a bad idea as the company will now have their own Dr examine her, my suspicions are that their own Dr will be biased.

Hello there.

Others have more experience than I do, but doctors' reports about me to HR or occupational health were excerpts from my records as my GP or consultant saw fit. I'm surprised that they expected all the records to be released.

Does the GP think s/he could write a letter to the company to explain the position?

HB

your partner can ask to see the occ health report before it goes in.

I'm guessing they requested all her records in hope of finding some way to get rid of her which they have a record of doing to their staff when they go sick.

My partner is looking for another job now but, despite what the government tell us, can only find a 15 hour job, anything less than 30 hours and we lose our Tax Credits = lose our home.

medical condition and problems completing task at work then a company can look to see if fit for purpose i.e the job in question?> if the condition agrevates the ability to complete task then it calls into question suitability and safety regards that person olso liability to the said company = comes to mind? and an alternative job sought! as stated! seen it so often over the decades,

my O.H. has been on the computer and god knows how many applications made in the last 3 yeas and still no responses, job centre offered her £1.45 per week sign on as she had 6 months of the original benefit but she would have to sign on 2 times a week bus fare £2.45 per day adds up does it Nottttttttttttttttt? she paid her stamps as well.

a very difficult situation on both people to be in!

Yeah, I'm just wondering if she should tell her Dr to send the notes rather than leave it to the company's OH who will no doubt be biased?

Hopefully someone is still reading this. I am worried.

She got a letter today saying that OH will phone her 2nd June to chat and write their report. It's a "Mr" phoning her, not a "Dr" so I have the suspicion it will be more a case of them looking to get rid of her. If so, we lose our house; we're just about managing now she's on the sick and if she gets sacked we're fkd.

I really wish that I could say that there is nothing to worry about.

But I'm not going to lie to you.

It doesn't matter who writes the report (and I'll come back to that)

- she has now been off sick for two months, and it is very likely that the employer, even if they are not yet there, will be starting to consider the long term prospects and whether they should dismiss or not.

Occupational health is often not a doctor, but a medical professional

- quite a few are specialists with qualifications in occupational health.

For good reason

- most ordinary medical professionals are lousy at employment!

They are trained in medicine, not employment.

Occupational health specialists are trained in both.

They give the employer an independent opinion as to the medical situation of someone, their prospects of returning to work, and whether any adjustments can be made to facilitate that return.

However, whatever they say is not binding on the employer.

They don't tell the employer what to do, and the employer can ignore the entire report if they wish to.

In mental health situations, a conversation may be enough for them to review the situation based on the doctors notes.

They obviously believe that is the case here, and I can see why.

It is relatively straightforward.

They are likely to ask whether she sees any prospect of returning to work, and if there is anything that will help her do so.

This is her chance to say what she would like - but remember that even if they recommend it, that doesn't mean anything.

I'm going to be very blunt here, so please forgive me. This is just the way it is. Sorry.

It is nobodies fault if you lose your house (which is also possibly not the case - payment holidays etc., may be possible).

They may not be the nicest employers in the world, but the law does not require them to be nice.

it does not require them to organise their business around what your partner wants.

you know the job situation around where you live - you have already indicated that there are no other jobs of 30 hours or more to be had.

one or both of you need to get your act together.

She needs to go back to work.

And / or you need to go to work. If you scrape through by the skin of your teeth this time, you won't next time.

The employer isn't going to wait forever for her return.

Perhaps they are overly zealous at applying the rules.

Perhaps your wife would be better in a place with more people sound or her old place.

But none of that matters.

They are legally not doing anything wrong.

And that is the only thing that matters.

I am afraid that both of you really need to get down to brass tacks- you are at, or near the end of this journey, and one way or another it is unlikely to end wellSo you need to make some hard decisions.

Thanks Sangie, appreciate the to-the-point tips and advice:

- My Mrs seems to believe she can't be sacked while she's on the sick and that can be up to 23 weeks sick. which ends on 4th October 2017 and that if she's sacked while sick that's unfair dismissal.

- It would not make us better off financially if I worked as that would mean losing the PIP and Housing Benefit etc that goes with it. The only solution is for her to talk it out with OH and perhaps ask to be moved elsewhere (or to find another job). ?

Appreciate any advice from anyone

I've posted this here to ask if anyone can help in my main thread which is here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?477242-Employer-wants-to-meet-to-discuss-absence-regarding-depression-they-caused.&p=5022241&

Thinking it best we split up, if I'm to be homeless I'd rather do it alone.

Thanks Sangie, appreciate the to-the-point tips and advice:

 

- My Mrs seems to believe she can't be sacked while she's on the sick and that can be up to 23 weeks sick. which ends on 4th October 2017 and that if she's sacked while sick that's unfair dismissal.

 

I am afraid that is not true. An employer can quite lawfully dismiss an employee on grounds of capability - that is to say that the employee, due to an extended period of sickness, is unable to fulfil the terms of their contract. Providing that the employer uses correct procedure - involves OH, takes recommendations, sets reasonable objectives etc then the dismissal would be lawful and reasonable in the circumstances. The standpoint is that the employer is running a business and the absence is causing disruption to the business

Well you actually made me laugh. Or at least your Mrs did. Get that right out of your head! She can certainly be dismissed whilst off sick. That, in itself, is not unfair dismissal. I have no idea where that notion keeps coming from. It is utterly and absolutely untrue. Employers do it all the time. And provided they follow a reasonable process, it's fair. And her employers appear to be following exactly that process.

PIP is not means tested- you can work and still get it. It is based on an assessment of your disability, not your financial status. And if you are renting, how would you lose your house - if she loses her job then housing benefit would cover the rent, wouldn't it? I assumed that you meant you wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage.

I think it is incredibly selfish of you to say that you'd split up. It may sound champion in your head, but if your relationship is worth so little to you, I doubt it will in hers! But I'm sure you don't mean it. However, this sort of thing isn't going to help her - you are sitting there saying that it's her responsibility to bring in the money to keep you together and with a roof over your head. So your entire future together depends upon her going back to work or getting another job, because if you tried to work you'd lose housing benefit. Does that sound quite as good now I've unpacked it???? No? Good.

Now you need to think this through together. You are not without options between you. Fewer than you'd like perhaps. But not without any. For example, I know her employers are not the nicest or most considerate she could have. But it is definitely easier to get a job when in one than when it of one. Can she cope with returning on the basis that it is about getting some space to find a new job? Are there things that you can do that would make returning easier? Is setting up her own cleaning business a possibility? Plenty of people pay for housework - I do! There must be options. Find them. Don't just give up.

You already had the correct advice. You dont need to make another thread that just links to the old one.

Threads merged, I don't see any benefit in having a separate thread in a different CAG forum. You may not like the advice and I'm sorry about that, but the guys on the employment forum know their stuff.

HB

Sorry for your treatment on here. Just watch out for some of the trolling on this forum, this hasn't been a good advert for people coming on here looking for help and support.

While there are some contributors who really know their stuff and others who are genuinely trying to advise you, albeit in an overly negative way, there are some contributors (and quite a lot of them) who deliberately play down any options you might have in order to make your situation seem worse than it is and make you feel bad about yourself

lf. The 'an employer is a business brigade' foe example - hardly any real employers actually say that to their staff.

The 'advice' you have received is not what you need when you have a family member suffering from depression.

I'd recommend looking at other posts from some of the contributors to this thread to see their overall tone and whether they're really willing and able to help you. This will help you sort out the wheat from the chaff.

You're situation is definitely not as bleak as has been made out, and you have more rights and options than have been indicated to you. Some of the advice you have received has been downright misleading.

Good luck with your situation, and apologies again for some of the posts you've received.

Sorry for your treatment on here. Just watch out for some of the trolling on this forum, this hasn't been a good advert for people coming on here looking for help and support.

 

 

While there are some contributors who really know their stuff and others who are genuinely trying to advise you, albeit in an overly negative way, there are some contributors (and quite a lot of them) who deliberately play down any options you might have in order to make your situation seem worse than it is and make you feel bad about yourself. The 'an employer is a business brigade' foe example - hardly any real employers actually say that to their staff. The 'advice' you have received is not what you need when you have a family member suffering from depression. I'd recommend looking at other posts from some of the contributors to this thread to see their overall tone and whether they're really willing and able to help you. This will help you sort out the wheat from the chaff.

 

 

You're situation is definitely not as bleak as has been made out, and you have more rights and options than have been indicated to you. Some of the advice you have received has been downright misleading.

 

 

Good luck with your situation, and apologies again for some of the posts you've received.

Given that 98% of the responses in this thread are from the same poster...who is very experienced in this field..we fail to see any trolling or negative advice or any misleading advice given.Perhaps you could expand explicitly on what precisely you would advise as an alternative.

So no need to apologise on CAGs behalf.

Andyorch

Since employers are a business, I find it incredible that you think they are not.

If you believe ANY PART of what I have said is wrong or legally incorrect, please point out where and why.

Any employee off sick for a significant period of time can, provided a legally fair process is followed, be sacked.

Would you prefer that posters are lied to to make them feel better?

Having depression does not make someone immune from the realities of employment law.

But from what I can see, the only person who appears to be trolling here is you

- abusing other posters, calling them trolls, and saying that people have other options without saying what you think those are.

If you have something constructive to say, say it.

Don't dig up old threads just to berate the advice.

Especially when you don't know what you are talking about.