Hey guys,

Looking for a bit of help.

Got this parking ticket while dropping my daughters medicine off to nursery.

I was literally in and out.

I have checked the signs and road markings, I don't think I have grounds to appeal on those.

My only saving grace might be the fact that the ticket was issued at 9.50 am and it was observed from 9.50 to 9.50.

I know some councils have an observation period but I couldn't find anything relating to this on Havering councils website.

I found some in Camden council (3 minutes) and Brighton council (5 minutes).

Could anyone give me some advice whether I have any grounds to appeal this?

Many thanks,

Bogyo79

so you've a penalty charge notice

Yeah, sorry. I wasn't very clear, was I.

What sort of restriction was there - yellow lines? Can you be as clear as possible, because it will affect where you stand. Sometimes you should get an observation period, sometimes not.

Hi,

Yes, it was single yellow line restricted from 8.30am to 6.30pm. Sign is right there but no loading restriction on it.

Not sure what else you need but please let me know.

If it is as you describe,

just a plain and simple yellow line,

you should be allowed an observation period before the PCN is issued,

since you are permitted to stop there to load/unload.

Sometimes that involves being away from the vehicle for a coupe of minutes

(eg, you may have to go inside to deliver the items you're unloading).

'Unloading' might not be strictly the case with dropping off medicines (which presumably you could put in your pocket)

but nevertheless, if the CEO gave you no observation time, then he/she could not be sure the contravention had occurred.

I think you should appeal on that basis and you have a good chance of winning.

You needn't explain yourself by telling them exactly what you were doing

- just "I was delivering items" will do as a description, and point out the lack of observation time etc.

Thanks for this. I will give it a try and let you know how I get on. Is there a criteria for loading? I.e. Hazards have to be on, doors open etc

Also, do I have to prove that I was delivering goods, like delivery note eyc

Loading or not is nothing to do with lights or doors - it's determined purely by the observation of the CEO - if he doesn't see you loading, then you aren't loading. It's not that relevant in your case, since he appears not to have waited to observe whether there was loading going on.

If you had a delivery note it would certainly bolster your case, but if you don't it's fine anyway. The issue is just the lack of observation time. As I said, I woudn't voluteer too much info as to what you were up to - just truthfully say you were dropping off items, and weren't given any observation time or the CEO would have realised this.

Great! Thank you! I have appealed so watch this space!

Hi again,

I have just received a notice of rejection to my appeal stating that my vehicle was observed for a period of time and the PCN stands unless I can provide proof of the goods I was delivering I.e.sales receipt corresponding to the contravention date.

Obviously it's impossible

but I was wondering if I have any grounds pursuing this further on the basis that there wasn't any observation time (less than a minute). I have tried to upload a photo of the letter but not sure how to do it.

Please advise.

upload

so here is the letter. thanks dx100uk

LA letter.pdf

They appear to have sent you a templated reply, asking for proof of loading.

Their problem now is that they have asserted in writing that the vehicle was observed, to ascertain whether loading was taking place. According to what you say, this is not true.

I think you should wait for the Notice to Owner, then make a formal rep (another written appeal) re-stating your case and bringing up the inadequacy of their reply to you. Emphasise that there was no observation period, and that by the council's own explanation, it is clear that an observation period was reasonable and necessary. I think you will win.

Thank you. I will do that and let you know how I get in.

the definition of loading and unloading is fairly broad

but generally anything that goes into a carrier bag isnt loading and unloading.

The request for an invoice or delivery note is again in the guidance

but i used to get tikcets on my van whilst loading and I always stated that I was loading my own goods being offered for sale and that was enough to get the tickets cancelled.

Agree that to determine if loading etc was taking place the CEO must either observe you or wait a minimum period to be able to say that such activity was not observed.

The council will have to say what that minimum period is and a FOI request will drag it out of them if necessary. T

hey usually try and get their rejection to you before the FOI response to pressure you to pay up.

Please don't waste everyone's time and money on a Freedom on Information request. If you want to find out the standard observation time, just ask them.

Cool, thanks for the advice.

I did say IF NECESSARY.

This is not meant to indicate the first approach to the council.

Some councils are very good, others very obstructive.

Often depends on which department you are talking to so ask LB of Sutton parking people for something and they are obstructive, ask the ordianry customer services people and they are quite good.

Please don't waste everyone's time and money on a Freedom on Information request. If you want to find out the standard observation time, just ask them.

Personally I dont think their is a case. The time in question. 9.50 to 9.50.

I suspect the CEO saw you pull up stop engine and get out and walk off.

You could of been "delivering" good news.

There is a case to argue. You are allowed to do exactly what you describe. How else can you collect goods, without stopping the engine, getting out and walking off? The CEO needs to observe further to see if you are contravening the regs.