Hi,

I haven't had to use the forum for a while as when I did the advice and guidance I received was fantastic and resolved my problem.

However, new year, new problem!

I took a company to court last year and won the case!

The problem is that the company closed down the business and opened again next door and under a new name.

I contacted the sheriff's office and a local solicitor to be told that I can transfer the debt but I must find out the owner's name of both companies.

I've tried and tried to get it, but as it's not a limited company I can't get the name of the owners and nobody I contact will give me it (due to data protection).

Can you help/advise how I can get this and what I should do? Do you need any other info from me?

Any help gratefully received.

Best Regards

Any of these links of use??

https://companycheck.co.uk/

https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-a-company

Cheers Bazooka Boo,

I've just checked and neither their old name or their new name come up with anything. They've obviously been trading under a different name to the actual company name and no reference to this has been or is mentioned on their paperwork or website.

It's a car company of which I reported to the HMRC as I noticed they don't give their VAT number on their invoices.

It seems they've been trading like this for years.

Any ideas how to proceed?

Regards

Holy

I find this one useful

http://www.companydatabase.org.uk/

Cheers DX100UK,

Nothing on both company names

then its p'haps time to name names

dx

Yes, who are they?

When you sued these people originally, was it definitely a limited company (or PLC or LLP) that you listed as the defendant?

There are other possibilities where the liability might be limited: such as a limited partnership.

The other possibilities are where the business is owned by an individual (sole trader) or individuals (a partnership), where the liability remains with the individuals even if the business has ceased trading.

OP : you may need to reveal what information you have so far ........

Hi Guys,

The company (originally) was Northampton Autosports.

I believe they are now trading (2 doors down ) as Performance Trade Centre in Northampton.

I viewed the car I bought from the 'new' unit

they said they were in the middle of moving into.

I contacted Biz Space who they rent from,

but they gave me the 'data protection' quote.

I've even asked Biz Space where they stand with companies operating illegally out of their units,

but received no reply so I presume Biz Space don't care as long as the rent gets paid.

When I sued Northampton Autosports I only had the name that was above the door and on the invoice so I could only sue them with that.

They wouldn't give their personal names and no other personal names were on any business cards or documents.

The question about it being a limited company..

.... I didn't believe, and I'm sure it wasn't, limited.

Regards

Holy

Both companies are required (if sole trader or partnerships) to have the owner(s) details on display at their premises, and on invoices / receipts

https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/business-information-other/company-and-business-names#PART1Soletraderspartnerships

The legislation behind this being:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/part/41/chapter/2

Get trading standards to visit the active garage, if they aren't compliant.

The problem is linking the previous firm you have the CCJ against to an individual.

Did that firm lodge any documents with the court (AoS, defence, witness statement), and if so whose details were on that?

If you get that link, send in the HCEOs with the documentation linking the current firm to the one you have the CCJ against (if the sum is sufficient for HCEOs)

Thread moved to the appropriate forum.

Andy

Cheers BazzaS,

That's good info.

There were no names on any paperwork and nothing was visible in the office. Because people I contact wont give me any names due to data protection then I'm stuck. Maybe when contacting Trading Standards they can give me that info??

Sorry, what's HCEO?

Regards

Holy

High Court Enforcement Officers

[will cost you £60]

HCEO is High Court Enforcement Officer.

(With the right paperwork!) they can turn up at a business (gaining entry by force if required!), giving them a chance to pay, and if they don't pay seize goods to secure the debt.

You'd need to link the 2 businesses.

I suggest you get the details for Northampton Autosports from:

http://www.internetters.co.uk/whois_search.php,

assuming that the webpage for that company is northamptonautosports.co.uk

a now defunct website.

Do so, and then save a copy of the info as it may disappear (it certainly expires 4th Feb 2017)

Relevant dates:

Registered on: 04-Feb-2011

Expiry date: 04-Feb-2017

Last updated: 20-Jan-2015

Of course, the Registrant, Miss SB, may not be the owner of the company, or it may be a website for a different "northampton autosports" ;

if I get the chance to use one of the 'wayback' machines to check what the website said when it was active I'll do so.

Miss SB of Market Harborough is listed as:

Registrant type: UK Sole Trader

The other business's website has registrant listed as the company:

Registrant: Performance Trade Centre

Registrant type: Unknown

Registrant's address: UNIT 3 BUSINESS CENTRE, KINGSFIELD WAY KINGS HEATH INDUSTRIAL ESTATE NORTHAMPTON NN5 7QN United Kingdom

Data validation: Nominet was not able to match the registrant's name and/or address against a 3rd party source on 24-Jun-2016

And while that might not be unlawful (I'm not sure regarding that!), their website doesn't make it clear who is trading as "Performance Trade Centre", and if the details aren't clearly visible within their place of business : Trading Standards.

Speak to TS anyway, others may have had similar problems with Northampton Autosports (and check for other CCJs?, using Trust Online), and you can highlight the lack of owner's details for Performance Trade Centre

Again, your aim is to establish sufficient linkage (by the individual owning the firms) to allow enforcement for your CCJ against the firm currently trading, or against that individual.

Performance Trade Centre are on AutoTrader. Would it be worth highlighting to AutoTrader (on 0330 303 9001, or emailing [problem]@autotrader.co.uk) that their website doesn't give the owner's details (nor do they do at their bricks and mortar site).

You might also ask if autotrader have any details for Northampton Autosports, or might be willing to supply them to TS (assuming N Autosports also used autotrader??)

EDIT: The review on Autotrader for Performance Trade Centre has URL text for northampton autosports! :

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/services/car-dealers/uk/east-midlands/northamptonshire/northampton/northampton-autosports-northampton-dpp-10000688/reviews/true?sort=reviewrelevancedesc

Can autotrader confirm a link between the two businesses, either to you or Trading Standards?

The wayback machine at https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.northamptonautosports.co.uk shows for Oct 1st 2106 a redirection from Northamptonautosports.co.uk to .performancetradecentre.co.uk ......

I'm not saying they were written by the same person, but Performance Trade Centre's website message seems vaguely familiar (or altered from a copy of Northampton Autosports .....)

"If you are looking for great savings on quality used cars in the Northampton area, then you have reached the right place. Performance Trade Centre are a specialist used car dealer based in Northamptonshire.

We are proud to offer you a first class customer service and very competitive pricing, so please browse our stock list.

At Performance Trade Centre, we stock a range of used cars to suit all budgets and lifestyles so we are sure to have the right car for you.

If you are looking for a second hand car in Northampton, then don't delay, call us today. In order to offer cars to suit everyone we make sure that we update our stocklist regularly.

It is therefore always worth giving us a call, even if you don't see what you are looking for on our website.

We offer advice on vehicles and vehicle maintenance and our friendly staff will go the extra mile to guarantee that you receive the advice and support you need.

At Performance Trade Centre we don't just sell cars, we do everything possible to get you on the road with your perfect vehicle. Why not come along to our dealership in Northampton? We look forward to meeting you!"

and

"If you are looking for great savings on quality used cars in the Northampton area , then you have reached the right place. Northampton Autosports are a specialist used car dealer based in Northamptonshire .

We are proud to offer you a first class customer service and very competitive pricing, so please browse our stock list.

At Northampton Autosports we stock a range of used cars to suit all budgets and lifestyles so we are sure to have the right car for you.

If you are looking for a second hand car in Northampton , then don't delay, call us today to book a test drive. In order to offer cars to suit everyone we make sure that we update our stocklist regularly.

It is therefore always worth giving us a call, even if you don't see what you are looking for on our website.

We realise that buying a car can be a daunting experience, but don't worry, we are well established within the Northampton area and come with a great reputation.

Furthermore we offer excellent advice and experience on vehicles and vehicle maintenance. Our friendly staff will go the extra mile to guarantee that you receive the advice you need. This is the reason why many of our customers keep coming back to us.

At Northampton Autosports we don't just sell cars, we do everything possible to get you driving your perfect car. Why not come along to our dealership in Northampton? We look forward to meeting you!

Fellow CAG'ers : what do you feel regarding the odds of success of an application to the court to get the CCJ against Northampton Autosports altered to include Performance Car Centre, and then sending in the HCEOs?

BazzaS, you're a star! But not being au fait with legal things it'll take me a while to digest and understand all this

I forgot to answer the following question: "Did that firm lodge any documents with the court (AoS, defence, witness statement), and if so whose details were on that?"

They didn't and I presume they chose to ignore all communications, but someone did sign for the letters I sent.

Regards

Holy

Screen grab showing the wayback machine doing the website redirection between the 2 different sites .....

so, 2 options (strike that, make it 3):

1) go the trading standards route, or

2) go the "prove it yourself that the two companies are owned by the same entity), or

3) a hybrid : see if TS can identify the individual behind one (or both!) of the business(es)

Risk to options 1 (and 3): TS may not do anything, or may alert (by their inquiries) the latest business that you are after them.

Risk to option 2: the court may decide you don't have sufficient evidence to link the 2 businesses to allow the CCJ to be enforceable against the latest one.

Ohh, and a possible further avenue for information gathering : Northampton autosports are/were on LinkedIn ?

2017-01-04_14-27-24 1.pdf

In legal terms, there are really only two possibilities. The first possibility is that you sue an individual. The second possibility is that you sue a registered company, which would have a registered name on Companies House. There is no such thing as an unregistered company.

The definitive website for looking up companies is https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/. If you can find the company name on there, you can look at the company's latest annual return for free to see who the directors and shareholders are.

I can't find any company details for Northampton Autosport. If there is no registered company that means there is no such thing as a company "Northampton Autosport". If so, your claim is legally against the individuals who were trading as "Northampton Autosport". If those individuals have moved their business down the road and changed the name, that doesn't matter, in legal terms your claim is against the individuals who run the business and that claim is not affected just because they changed the name of their business.

I'm not convinced there would be any point amending your CCJ from "Northampton Autosports" to "Performance Trade Centre". It sounds like neither of those names exist as companies. Though I suppose it would help if the bailiffs think a CCJ against the "Performance Trade Centre" would let them go on the premises even though there is no such company with that name.

I suppose the problem you have is that you don't know who the individuals are. Do you have their bank account details on the invoice? If they are still using the same account, you could try to get a "Third Party Debt Order" which is basically enforcing your CCJ over the account.

You could also seek a court order requiring BizSpace to disclose information about the business to you but you might be liable for BizSpace's out of pocket costs and legal fees if you do that.

What if the individual is unknown but it can be shown that the individual trading as Northampton autosports is also trading as Performance trade centre ..

... does the individual have to be named directly for enforcement to be made against the second business,

if the court allows the second business to be named in the amended CCJ?

If there is no limited company set-up, there is no legal distinction between the "individual" and the "business".

The assets of the business would legally belong to the individual.

I'm not 100% sure a CCJ against a company which doesn't exist is valid.

If the bailiffs are happy to go ahead and enforce even though there is no company registered

, and the individual can't be identified,

perhaps you can get the name changed,

though an application to court would need to be made which means a fee of £255.

Definitely one to ask the bailiffs about.

Could also try searching against their VAT reg number if there is a VAT number on the invoice?

WOW!!

I'm feeling quite positive over this

Please excuse me if I come across as being naive.... but I am!

I've just sent an email to Autotrader requesting the info as suggested by BazzaS so I'll let you know the response when I have it.

In regard to steampowered's question regarding names/accounts on invoices etc......nothing. Plus it was a cash sale (dozy, I know! )

I sincerely appreciate your help guys!

When I contacted the Sheriff's Office they said I could transfer the CCJ between a company and an individual. The issue for them/me was there was no name.

Only when I contacted Citizens Advice did I notice that there was no VAT number on the invoice which I immediately reported to the HMRC. What they did with that info I wasn't informed.

Regs

Holy

I'm guilty of using 'company' and 'business' interchangeably, where it is probably better to stick to 'business', as it seems Northampton Autosports was a business, not a 'company' per se (well, definately not a limited company or LLP needing to be registered at Companies House).

Although the business may not exist any longer, the CCJ is against the individual(s) who was/were the business (or partnership), through that business, and that won't 'die' with the 'death' of that business.

The ongoing issue is them not being named. Seek advice from HCEOs on if the information you have is enough for enforcement against the 2nd business / the likelyhood of getting the CCJ amended to cover the 2nd business

on the basis of the 2 businesses not being limited companies and (likely) having the same owner even if Mr/Mrs/Miss X's name isn't known.

When I contacted the Sheriff's Office they said I could transfer the CCJ between a company and an individual. The issue for them/me was there was no name.

This is the difficulty. As BazzaS points out, this isn't a case of transferring a CCJ between a company and an individual. In fact there is no company.

Definitely one for the HCEOs as to whether they can enforce simply against a business name.

How to deal with the 'sorry mate, data protection' fob off

DPA1998 Section 32, subsection 2, para (a) and/or (b)

S. 32? "Journalism, literature and art."???

Or S.35?? "Disclosures required by law or made in connection with legal proceedings etc."

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/29/section/35