hi

i run asmall ltd company with my wife,

i am waiting for the 14 days to end so i can go to court, but i want to screw them for more if i can

i have been paying unarranged borrowing fees for years, and the "unpaid item" charges have usually been responsible for pushing my account over the agreed overdraught limit

has anybody tried to claim back unarranged borrowing interest of 29.5%?

the problem is that the arranged borrowing fee of 5% above base rate, and the unarranged borrowing fee of 29.5%, are lumped together as a quarterly charge, with no way of knowing how they can be seperated

claiming these charges could be a huge stab in the side for natwest

imagine recouping charges at 29.5% over 6 years with compound interest?

somebody out there must know how to sort this out

somebody help please, i only have 7 days left to prepare my spreadsheet with interest, and i dont want them to get away with a penny

bob

Hi

We have just put in a claim thru local court for charges plus 29.5% compound interest. We have left it to the judge to decide what would be suitable interest rate. We were only charged unarranged on our business account as we had no overdraft facility. Then they closed it.

In my opinion you would be better off with a sturdy box under the bed rather than a business account.

thanks for reply

i am really struggling to get any help with this issue

there is a lot of money slipping through peoples fingers, but nobody on this site, or the other one, seem bothered

when is your court case?

as i understand it, it never gets to court, they always settle on the last day, so how will the judge be able to decide the interest?

you might be interested in the 29.5% interest calculater on penaltycharges.co.uk, it will give you a fright, how much you could claim with compound interest

its no good to me, as i cant seperate my agreed borrowing interest from the unarranged borrowing

Bob

Hi, there are speedsheets that will calculate 29.9% (and any other % you wish to try), avaliable on here too.

The main reason so many of us are letting the 29.9% slip through our fingers is simply that it has to be put in the Prelim letter, and the LBA letter, and it was still untested, when we did our 1st letters.

A lot more people are doing it now, and there are a number of threads that may show the way. (some still beleive it to be risky)

hi, i may as well forget it then, as i am nearing the court stage

i tried the spreadsheets on here, but couldnt understand them

Bob

can i charge natwest 29.5% on all the quarterly interest charges , as i cant seperate the agreed charges and the unagreed charges interest

LEASE WILL SOMEONE HELP ME

Bob

hi

so far asked for my money back, sent standard spreadsheet, got standard reply in just 9 days

now decided to go for compound interest at 29.5%, their contractual rate.

now claim is over £6000, but i understand that the £5000 limit is a net limit,+ interest and costs, is this correct?

so do i

1. send a new prelim letter [ cant find one for business, so sent LBA last time ] PLUS the interest charges and wait another 14 days , then send another LBA or 2. do i send the business LBA with the new spreadsheet and interest charges, and put them in court in 14 days

hope this makes sense

Bob

ps i am suprised there is so little help for businesses

i hope i will be able to offer more support once my claim is complete

Hi, B&S

I think you could claim 29.5% interest but ONLY if you were in unauthorised overdraft the whole time. The current authorised rate is 17.95% and I would expect they'd be hard pushed to portray that as unreasonable.

Have a look at Haydn's experience, which is here (http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mercantile-court-cases-stays/36034-case-management-conference-13th.html)

Anything is up for grabs until you file your claim. Personally - but it's your choice - I'd go for charges plus contractual interest plus 8% on top. Don't mention the statutory interest until you file your claim. You don't need another preliminary letter - you already have their response. And I think you've sent your LBA, too. Don't worry if the LBA and your claim don't match precisely: you've given them the chance to have a meaningful dialogue, they've rejected it.

Size of claim - if your charges and contractual interest (the 17.95 or 29.5, whichever) are less than £5K then it's a small claim. The statutory interest doesn't come into that calculation.

Anyway, hope that's helpful. Come back if you want anything esle.

Westy

It has been done against NatWest's sister company.

I think there are details in the RBS "success" forum.

hi all

filed claim today down at court

i have read elsewhere on here, that if the claim for charges is less than £5000, irespective of what interest you are claiming, then the fee is no more than £120

i was told in no unsertain terms by the court clerk, that this wasnt the case, and if my total claim including interest was more than 5k, then it would cost me £250

i tried to explain that i was claiming compound contractural rate but at the discretion of the court,otherwise it would be 8%, and that this wasnt set in "stone"

i ended up having to submit the claim for an unspecified amount

• has anybody else had a similar experience?

the other interesting point with filing at this time, is the looming holidays

they will be issues with the claim on friday,-----but i am wondering how many days holiday COBBLERS have off at xmas-----they certainly wont have a lot of work days to sort out there aknowledgement

will be back again soon with an update

Bob and sue

Hi, Bob & Sue

The contractual interest forms part of your claim so the court person is correct. Statutory interest is in addition and isn't part of the claim for the purposes of calculation. So - £250 it is. Sorry! Know how you feel.

Don't know hwy it would be unspecified though, unless you really weren't sure how much the total would be.

I expect the court will allow Cobbetts the two bank holidays as 'days of grace' but they take an extra couple of days anyway, so it won't really make any difference!

Westy

Hi, Bob & Sue

The contractual interest forms part of your claim so the court person is correct. Statutory interest is in addition and isn't part of the claim for the purposes of calculation. So - £250 it is. Sorry! Know how you feel.

 

Don't know hwy it would be unspecified though, unless you really weren't sure how much the total would be.

 

I expect the court will allow Cobbetts the two bank holidays as 'days of grace' but they take an extra couple of days anyway, so it won't really make any difference!

 

Westy

hi westy

it just goes to show, that no matter how much research you do, you can still get it wrong

i opted for the £120 option, but had to submit as unspecified to keep below £5K

i know how much i would like it to be, as the unaranged rate + contractural doubles my claim, but wheather i get it is another thing, in the POC i have left it to the courts discretion, once they have considered my convincing arguments, i wish now i had bunged the £250 and then cobblers would then have had to wriggle out of it, as it is, i think it will have to go b4 a judge b4 i get anything

i spoke to the court today and it goes like this:

1 when the POC is posted, the "served" date is 2 days after that

2 they never post after thursday, so the served day is never sunday

3 the defendant has 14 days to aknowledge AFTER the serve day

4 if you dont apply for default imediately, then they can still aknowledge after the 14th day , and this will take priority over your default notice

5 there are no allowences for sundays, bank holidays, or any other types of holidays

6 get your judgment in late on the last day, so ii there reply arrives in the next days post, thes you have got in first, and won

the only thing i didnt check was if the court office is open on saturday , if not, and that is thier last day, then ge default in on friday to win

will keep you all updated

i think info like this should be available in a specific section, for all to use as another tool against our enemys, anything to help us all to be one step ahead

in my cae they are really going to have to jump through hoops to respond in time---lets hope cobbblers take the whole week off

Bob and sue

Look forward to hearing about your progress.

You may always be able to amend your POCs, specify and pay the additional - £130 plus (I think) £35 (for amendment) in January may be easier on the wallet, if the court will go for it.

By all means, follow my thread: their last date for entering defence is 26 December so, if there is none then I shall go for it.

That being based on your info about the court practice - thanks.

By jingo, here we goo - we've got the gen, we've got the sums, we've got CAG too!

Best wishes

Westy

Hi all, a quick update, nothing exciting though

hope you all had a good break over xmas, personally i was struck down with the dreaded flue, still not right yet , but onward and upward tally hoe

the court cocked up my service to crapwest, should have been on 23rd dec, but served it on 30th instead

got letter of acknowledgement of service from cobblers dated 2nd january saying they are going to defend the whole of the claim, i didnt think they would have been at work so soon

just got to wait now for the 28 days from date of service to get the defence, and then the fun begins

i feel at a bit of a loose end at the moment, i think i will look into the possibility of claiming back a £3000 penalty charge i paid 3 years ago when i changed my mortgage, the problem is i dont have the account number,any suggestions?

cheers for now,

and a happy new year to all on CAG

Bob and Sue

Hi

Things are starting to happen at last, after the long wait,

Received defence, then 2 days later offer arrived for 2.3K, about half of claim without interest

Filed my AQ on the 5th, the last day, and included BF’s update for section ‘G’ , and recommended small claims track

Received copy of AQ from cobblers this morning, a bit strange I think

• they have recommended small claims track, although claim is for just under 7K, with CI
  
• they haven’t included any other information in section ‘G’
  
• they haven’t attatched their fee for filing the AQ

are they cracking at last?

Can I get them struck out for none payment of fee, why should they get away with it

Bob and sue

ok

just answered this for myself

rang tne court today, the defence dont have to pay the fee

Hi

quick update

just received court date for 30th March, and allocated to small claims--good news-- no fancy pre hearings, all seems very placid and straight forward so far, fingers crossed

i tried the new stratergy for the AQ, but the judge didnt use it

having said that, it wouldnt have made much difference in my case, as its less than 5 weeks to the hearing

there cant be the volume of claims up here in south yorkshire as there are else where, as i have read of court dates being set for many months ahead

now its the court bundle and lots of photo copying

should i get it in early, or is it worth hanging on in the hope that they settle, and save me a lot of work?

any new members reading this, it really is very easy to get to this stage, just follow the "step by step guide " to the letter

even the next bit isnt that bad, as long as you prepare properly

back soon

Bobandsue

hi all

---won today--- £4,570

but no cci, only paid 8% anually + costs

dont know what to do now

should i bank the cheque and call their bluff for the rest---or just be gratefull and bow out gracefully

can post the whole letter tonight if that will help

Bobandsuzzi

mods please put won in thread title

Well done. Take it and enjoy!

this doesnt seem to be the standard reply that i have read on here, can somebody have a quick look over it for me please

still cant decide weather to bank the cheque, as they could still claw it back

many thanks

Bobandsuzzi

Our client considers that your challenge to its charges would fail in Court. Our client believes that its charges are fair, reasonable and transparent. It considers that the amount debited to your account has been applied strictly in accordance with your agreement with it and its published tariff. Our client is also committed to ensuring the transparency of the information that it gives to its customers about the operation of its products. As such, our client does not believe that your claim has any prospect of succeeding.

We note that you refer to the contractual rate as being a fair and equitable rate.

As the figure of 29.69% is a mathematical average and not based on historical data, a court would be unable to find on the balance of probabilities that your calculations are accurate. It would be bound to find against you. The schedule you have provided relies on the assumption that interest was being debited from the account at all material times and the account was at no stage in credit. Only if this premise is correct could the account have attracted interest day-to-day. To the extent that the account has been in credit since charges were first levied in 2002, there could have been no unauthorised borrowing interest.

In the circumstances, it is our client’s contention that your client is only entitled to unauthorised borrowing interest accrued on the account at the time the charges themselves accrued. However, although our client remains of the view that you are only entitled to 8% interest, and is confident that it will be successful at a final hearing, its legal fees will almost certainly outweigh the value of the claim, and, as such, our client must take a commercial approach to such claims.

Accordingly, without any admission of liability, our client is prepared to settle this matter to prevent incurring any further legal fees. We enclose a cheque in the sum of £4,570.62, which includes:

 

I Charges of3,314

2 Interest thereon at 8% per annum of £1,036.62

3 Court Fees of £220

Acceptance by you of this goodwill payment will be in full and final settlement of your claim against our client and strictly on the basis that:

1 you agree not to disclose to any third party the fact of, or any details relating to, this payment;

2 you write to the Court withdrawing your claim.

Any charges that properly accrue in the future will be applied to your account in line with our published tariff and in accordance with your agreement with the bank. Should you be unwilling to accept any such charges then we may need to consider if we are prepared to continue to provide you with your existing banking facilities. Instead we may offer you a simple account that does not offer borrowing facilities or other services that can result in charges.

We would ask that you now write to the Court and discontinue proceedings in this matter. We have attached two copies of the Notice of Discontinuance, and we should be grateful if you would complete the copies, forwarding one to the Court and the duplicate to us.

We await receipt of the completed Notice of Discontinuance

bobandsuzzi,

This might be of interest http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/18313-why-no-one-claiming-72.html. Your in a difficult position, because if you go to court you will have to prove you interest figure of 29.5% applied throughout the period of your claim. I have claimed the authorised rate (5,75% above base). which they cannot argue with ,because i was in my overdraft through out the period i am claiming for. Hope this helps a little.Its really down to your own deal or no deal.

"In the circumstances, it is our client’s contention that your client is only entitled to unauthorised borrowing interest accrued on the account at the time the charges themselves accrued."

Correct me if i am wrong this is the first time i have seen Nat West admit that any one is entitled to authorised borrowing charges that have been " accrued " with the penalty charges.

"In the circumstances, it is our client’s contention that your client is only entitled to unauthorised borrowing interest accrued on the account at the time the charges themselves accrued."

parkvale, i thought the same, it might be worth getting a mod to comment on this

i am wondering if i can "up" my claim on this basis, whilst banking the cheque as part settlement?

bob and suzzi,

Josemolly very similiar position,have a look. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/72667-jos-gets-offer-cobbets.html