Hi, my partner recently received a parking charge notice from Excel.

She enterened into the car park to pick her son up from work.

She didn't actually park the car,

just drove around and stopped in the road at different locations while waiting for him.

Although she was actually, according to the "photographic evidence," in there for 31 minutes.

She didn't purchase a ticket but she never left the car or parked.

Not sure how the car park actually works that they know she didn't get a ticket!

I've read through several posts but would appreciate a bit of a walk through as I'm not that confident.

Thanks in advance

Spewy

Hi and welcome to CAG

Can you answer the questions here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket-(1-Viewing)-nbsp

As it seems this place is a regular for you, can you go back and photograph the signs. Upload them as a pdf file so we can see them properly.

I also assume it is Icelands car park so the twitter link added may get their attention. If not, I would complain to them.

it would be better if your sister posted on this so we dont have to go through chinese whispers to get all of the information and return advice.

1 Date of the infringement- 04/12/2016

2 Date on the NTK- 12/12/2016

3 Date received- 15/12/2016

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? - no mention of this

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?- photograph of car entering and leaving car park

6 Have you appealed?- not as yet

Have you had a response? N/a

7 Who is the parking company?- Excel Parking

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] - Ebbw Vale. The Walk.

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

There are two official bodies, the BPA and the IAS. If you are unsure, please check here

It states that if you appeal and it is unsuccessful you have the right to appeal to IAS.

The car park is shared between Iceland, Argos, Poundtretcher and a couple more so not sure who controls the car park.

Sorry ericsbrother, it's my partner not my sister so the info will all be first hand

Can I assume this was at night? On Google Street View I can see the signs and the images were updated in August this year so they are current. None of the signs I saw had any lighting so if this was at night, how would anyone see it.

I would get your partner to have a word with the manager and see if they can contact the management company to get this cancelled.

It would be worth checking on your local councils website to see if there was any planning permission for the signs.

The problem here is that Excel are members of the IPC and as such any appeal will be unsuccessful as the IAS is run by the same people as the IPC and their pet solicitor Gladstones so it is not in their interest to allow appeals.

The benefit is that you are under no obligation to name the driver. As they don't follow POFA they can only go after the driver, not the keeper. The basic mistake they make is that they 'assume' the keeper is also the driver. This doesn't wash with court cases.

I take it your partner was late leaving work so the overstay was out of your control.

Not at night, was 13:05.

My parntner was picking her son up from work in Argos,

he was late coming out so she drove around and didn't actually park.

I assume that the car park needs a car reg for the ticket and this is why they assume there was a penalty due?

I will check the council website to see if they have planning permission.

can you post up the NTK sent with the personal details redacted.

Who is the keeper of the vehicle?

your partner or someone else?

As Excel are members of the IAS an appeal is generally a complete waste of time but once all of the information has been studied we can suggest the wording of a denial letter that will show that some effort has been made to end this dispute.

We would need to see a photo of the signage that is there and show any signs that have a different size or content.

As you have amonth to deal with this it will be worth delaying responding to make sure you have what you need.

For the moment it is usual to offer a parking contract, not a contract to pass and repass as everyone has a right to do that by way of common law.

This means that there has been no breach of contract but they are too thick to understand the difference and too greedy to care.

my partner is the registered keeper.

I have emailed the council asking for details of any planning application regarding signage.

unfortunately the car park isn't local to us,

long story but we live an hour away from Ebbw Vale where the car park is.

we will be going back though so will try to get pictures of signs around the car park.

thanks again for your help.

much appreciated.

Untitled 1.pdf

Sorry, I have had to unapprove the attachment as it still contains info. I can see your reg number in the images and there is a reference number on the payment slip. These need editing out.

Sorry, hope this is ok

Also found this on the council website.

I've emailed them asking if there were and specifications

i.e. Height font size and lighting that they need to follow.

Just received these from the council planning dept also

docs1.pdf

need to know what the signs say then and whether they differ from the ones granted PP in 2012

( probably not and they would have changed them at the time to fit in with intro of POFA.)

When you photo them have a look at position of the signage,

whether there is a decent sign at the entrance and whether any other signs have different wording.

Are they well lit an night etc. (look for floodlights or spotlights that could make the signage readable in the dark.

Again, if not, how are you supposed to read them and consider whther you want to go along with the offer they contain?

Interesting that the council were sending out approval letters referring to the 1992 Control of Ads Regs, when the current set is 2007!

The sign as you go in is the one measured. There are other signs around the car park higher up, the one around the pay machine is the one with the t's & c's.

26 Dec 2016, 09:25:43.pdf

I would suggest that the signs are non compliant.

1 It has a PO Box address, not a 'real' address although that is a minor issue.

2 There is nothing on the sign that states the keeper would be liable for the drivers error. All they say is that thy have the right to get the keeper data from the DVLA. That means nothing.

3 There is a case (or few) where an incorrect reg number has been put in where the charge has been denied by the courts. They are saying that by inputting the wrong number will incur the charge.

4 Any ticket cancelled will attract a £10 fee. NAH! Not going to happen.

the first thing that the sign says is "refer to the full terms and conditions"

That means that this signage is an "invitation to treat" and the contract offered is the one on the ticket machine.

Dont pay and you dont accept the contract

- that doesnt mean you cant park but if you do you become a trespasser and that is not a contractual matter but the landowner can sue you for damages and your vehicle will have done no damage to the surface of the car park.

So, can landowner sue you for lost income?

Yes, at best you will have to pay the price of the ticket as that is the most they can lose.

Excel cant sue you for trespass.

Other things mentioned as silverfox highlights are rubbish when it comes to contracts,

by saying these stupid things they are damaging other aspects of any claim that may well have some validity.

More fool them.

Judges rarely say one side is right and the other is wrong,

it is all about quality of evidence and balance of probabilities.

You then get a decision that begins with the judge saying that they found Mr X to be a credible witness and later that his evidence was preferred to Mr Y's rather than saying Mr Y is an out and out liar.

Spacing.

Planning Law is like many laws,

they get updated periodically so referring to an old version is not necessarily wrong

but any permission granted would have to be relevent to that part of the Axt that has been unchanged by more recent legislation. Both are equally likely

ok, what would you suggest I do going forward?

for the moment, nothing or at best a simple letter saying

" No contract offered by yourselves as the signage doesnt create one so no monies can possibly be owed as a result.

Continued correspondence or action will be treated as harassment."

Dont add to this, dont say you were or werent the driver,

just use their reference number as a header.

If for now I do nothing, am I just waiting for their next step?

In short, yes.

They will have to write to you again and they may well pass the matter on to a dca who can do nothing, despite the tone of their threatograms.

Ultimately it is making them work for nothing rather than you doing something that makes then change tack and possibly change their story

Oh right, brilliant. Will wait in anticipation then

Thanks.

Just received a second letter saying it is now too late to appeal.

FullSizeRender.pdf

they dont like the POFA

so they have decided not to allow you to use the timings set out in that for an appeal.

The wording of the POFA is admittedly a bit ambiguous on this but the plus side is that this letter effective is an admission that keeper liability under POFA isnt created or considered.

They do like to change their mnd in court when it looks like they are going to lose though.

the signage will still sink any claim if you argue properly that the sigage is an invitation to treat and as they refer to the signs on the ticket machine,

this is what you must consider and accpet (when feeding the machine) to actually create a contract.

As the big sign doesnt say you cant come in here unless you feed the meter then you havent breached any condition on that sign as the bottom bit is an unfair clause.

It s like me saying to you,

"I want to buy your phone frok you and if you dont sell it them I am entitiled to take it from you.

Take too long to think about thsi and I will sue you for not selling it ( there is case law on this)

Should I just wait it out again then?

what choice do you have?

they are IPC members so they arent ever going to give a fair consideration to your appeal anyway,

did you not see the BBC undercover programme about them?

If you write to them and tell them they are pants at their job they will ignore your comments and do exactly what they intend to do anyway.

They just use a steamroller for everything so you may as well wait and let them waste a few quid sending out letters and when they emply their pet solicitor to threaten you then you can send them a suitably worded letter to show that you are not buryng your head in th sand but rather find them contemptible. Wording of letter will be suggested when the time comes.

Received these today

Any advice would be appreciated

4 Mar 2017, 12:31:20.pdf