Hi

I bought a year old Macbook [2015] from a private seller on ebay.

Genuine, bought last year from Apple.

Paid for enhanced compensation.

Parcelforce left the parcel outside the 24h reception and signed for it. He said he was in hurry..

Driver said a woman signed for it.

CCT proves that he dropped the parcel and left.

First accused an invisible woman for signing for it, then admitted signing for it.

The parcel, aka Macook, was stolen. All captured on CCT.

Crime ref given but police has yet to come and take my statement and watch CCT.

My situation is that I have a driver who has admitted signing for the parcel and leaving it unattended, and that only the sender can make the claim.

I paid £500 for the Macbook, which is a real bargain.

Am I entitled to a replacement or have I got to accept only a cash payment of £500.

The last two weeks have been spend with deep frustrations and anxieties not knowing the outcome.

I have an article from the Telegraph stipulating that Parcellforce should replace the item/Macbook of the same specification and compensate me.

"claim for replacement of the item and your money back on the grounds that Parcelforce had breached the delivery contract through the driver's actions.

In a recorded phone conversation with Parcelforce, they admit wrong doing on their side with the driver.

Also, I paid for Parcel24 and yet it took 48h to arrive.

Could some of you enlight me on what could be done?

Thanks

You can only claim for a "Quantifiable loss"

That loss being the original £500 you paid for the second hand product. (Market value) Anything else would be unjust enrichment

That will either be another second hand laptop with the same spec or the original cost price you paid

It will be down to the sender to compensate you for the loss, not Parcelforce. It will be the sender who claims off parcelforce, not you

Although they may say that they are only liable for the so-called insured value, I think you have very good basis for claiming the full value. Have you got evidence of what it was and evidence of the value?

I'm interested that you say that only the sender can make the claim. Who has told you this?

Have you got all of your evidence in writing – the admission that the driver sign for it himself?

Well done on recording the phone call. Most people don't and then eventually they regret it. Where have you got this recording? Have you taken a copy and make sure that it is stored securely elsewhere?

Parcelforce enhanced compensation t&c

The lowest of the cost/sale price will be used to settle a claim subject to the maximum compensation and allowing for wear and tear and depreciation where appropriate. VAT will be reimbursed in appropriate cases. Indirect or consequential loss including any labour costs is not covered. Postage costs are not paid for damage claims.

Any claims which overstate the value of the contents will be rejected

This not very relevant

The point i am making is that issue with non delivery to the customer is with the suuplier of those goods. That is who the contract is with, not parcelforce

The supplier will then claim off Parcelforce for any Quantifiable loss. The whole point with damages is to put the person who has sustained loss, be that the supplier or purchaser back into the same position as before the loss took place. As in General damages. The purchases can only claim for special damagers aginst the sender if appropriate, not Parcelforce who the purchaser has no contract with. The enhanced insurance the sender purchased in reality

That is how i see it anyway but will welcome any rebuttal

The point i am making is that issue with non delivery to the customer is with the suuplier of those goods. That is who the contract is with, not parcelforce

 

The supplier will then claim off Parcelforce for any Quantifiable loss. The whole point with damages is to put the person who has sustained loss, be that the supplier or purchaser back into the same position as before the loss took place. As in General damages. The purchases can only claim for special damagers aginst the sender if appropriate, not Parcelforce who the purchaser has no contract with. The enhanced insurance the sender purchased in reality

 

That is how i see it anyway but will welcome any rebuttal

Can I suggest that you hold off from posting any more on this thread – but monitor it to see how it develops.

Once the OP responds to the questions which have been asked, then we will try and give some advice

Although they may say that they are only liable for the so-called insured value, I think you have very good basis for claiming the full value. Have you got evidence of what it was and evidence of the value?

 

I'm interested that you say that only the sender can make the claim. Who has told you this?

 

Have you got all of your evidence in writing – the admission that the driver sign for it himself?

 

Well done on recording the phone call. Most people don't and then eventually they regret it. Where have you got this recording? Have you taken a copy and make sure that it is stored securely elsewhere?

The actual value is the Apple website.

Parcelforce stipulates that only the sender can make a claim although I have been the one to deal with it and relay with the sender.

I have, like I said, recordings of Parcelforce admitting wrong doing from the driver. Also, the driver admitting wrong doing and trying to offer me a cash settlement if I do not mention to his boss nor make a claim.

Reason? He would loose his job.

Also, Parcelforce management affirming that I would get a replacement with a new one and to not mention the value paid for it.

I only have the CCT of the driver dropping the parcel with his small signing machine in his hand and no one signing for it.

I did admit it while I was showing him copies of the different CCT, but the recording stopped when the video player got activated.

But he still say that it was his fault and wanted to pay for it.

I tend to recored everything these days as I have learn that it is my word again who ever..

I could post shorten version of the recording but dont know how.

I have 3 copies of each, phone , computer and backup.

Thanks

Thank you. Please could you give me the extract from the Parcelforce provision which says that only the sender can make a claim. Maybe you could link me to the full document as well.

You refer to the actual value on the Apple website. Was the computer you bought new? Or was it second-hand? What did you pay for it?

What do you mean when you say that the Parcelforce management said you would get a replacement with a new one and not to mention the value paid for it.

Don't worry about posting the recording. I understand from what you say that you have evidence of everything in recorded format. You haven't told me whether you have got a secure backup copy

I would do a chargeback/section 75 and pass all the evidence to the seller to sort out.

End of the day you paid for goods that were never delivered.

Not your problem to deal with Parcelforce.

I know you want to get a brand new MacBook out of it, but I seriously doubt that Parcelforce will give you one.

Thank you. Please could you give me the extract from the Parcelforce provision which says that only the sender can make a claim. Maybe you could link me to the full document as well.

 

You refer to the actual value on the Apple website. Was the computer you bought new? Or was it second-hand? What did you pay for it?

 

What do you mean when you say that the Parcelforce management said you would get a replacement with a new one and not to mention the value paid for it.

 

Don't worry about posting the recording. I understand from what you say that you have evidence of everything in recorded format. You haven't told me whether you have got a secure backup copy

This is one of the answer send from Parcelforce

"Thank you for your email and please accept my sincere apologies for the concern that this matter has caused and I can understand your disappointment.

In light of the information that you have provided I have passed a copy of the email to the senior management team at the London East depot.

Under no circumstances should a parcel be left unsecured and without being signed for. This would be considered to be a serious failure by the driver concerned.

Should corrective action be necessary, the depot management team will implement this locally, and details of any remedial action will remain confidential in order to comply with our employment policies.

I can also see that a claim for loss has been submitted by you and the Claims team will be in direct contact with you to request any information that they require to enable them to process the claim.

Once again, thank you for your email and my genuine apologies for the inconvenience and concern caused.

Kind regards

Chris Lindquist - Email Team Manager"

Again, I have the manager on recording repeating and repeating that only the sender can make a claim.

"14.3 Parcelforce Worldwide may require the Customer to substantiate a claim by providing any relevant information about the Consignment including proof of Despatch, proof of value, estimates for repair costs, cost price, invoices, weight and nature of the item(s) lost or damaged, serial numbers and IMEI numbers for electrical items. This may include requesting the Recipient to retain all packaging, or obtaining other documentary evidence and/or photographic evidence as requested by Parcelforce Worldwide from the Recipient of the Consignment. "

parcelforce.com/conditions-of-carriage

Like I mentioned in the first post, it was bought privately from a seller on eBay.

But it was only a year old, as new, bought from Apple.

Thanks

I would do a chargeback/section 75 and pass all the evidence to the seller to sort out.

End of the day you paid for goods that were never delivered.

Not your problem to deal with Parcelforce.

I know you want to get a brand new MacBook out of it, but I seriously doubt that Parcelforce will give you one.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I paid using Paypal, I am not entitled to use section 75.

The seller seems to be a good guy and is doing his best. But just doing what is required, no more. Unless I could show him otherwise.

But for that I have to know how first..

Okay, the email that you have from the manager is not a full admission although it is suggestive of it.

They are quite wrong to say that only the sender can make a claim. The Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act confers upon you as 1/3 party entitled to benefit under the contract, any rights which the original contracting party would have.

The provisions of this act would have to be expressly excluded by the contract. Please will you find the terms and conditions of the contract and link me to them so that I can have a look.

In any event, it seems to me that even if liability to 3rd parties is excluded – which I very much doubt – the fact that this contract has taken a totally new and unexpected direction, would probably change the game somewhat. If you weren't able to sue on contract, I think that you would certainly be up to sue in negligence. Frankly I expect that you can invoke the Rights of Third Parties Act.

I'm getting an inconsistent story from you as to the seller on eBay. You're saying that you bought it privately from a seller on eBay and then you are also saying that it was bought from Apple. It would be really helpful if you could just be a little bit straightforward and give an explanation that anybody could understand because I think that your explanation of the moment is a bit obtuse.

Be that as it may, you would only, at best, be able to get the replacement value of the computer. I expect the Parcelforce would argue that you could only get the purchase price, but if it is clear that you got a fantastic bargain then it seems to me that it would be reasonable to try and claim the full value of the bargain which you received. The computer may be as new – but it is still one year old and so somebody has had the benefit of one year's use and that would have to be deducted from the compensation which you might receive.

I have always thought that enhanced insurances in the courier industry are extremely questionable. It is an attempt by the courier industry essentially to sell you duplicate rights meaning rights which you already own under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Enhanced insurance, in my view, is a con and very much like extended warranties. A nice little earner for the seller and often not much use to the purchaser. And in any event, you generally tend to find that the insurer or the courier does their best to try and avoid even having to pay out under this extended warranty. Enhanced insurance is really just another type of extended warranty.

I now understand that Parcelforce say they going to get back to you. Do they know that you have all of these recordings? If they do offer you a full settlement of the replacement value then I expect that they will try to make it to you on conditions of confidentiality. People very rarely make claims against Parcelforce because they tend to accept Parcelforce's word that they don't have any rights. You have no need to accept any confidentiality here. I think that you are fully in the right and also I think that your chances of success are better than 95%. We will help you all the way. It will be very helpful to us and to others who read this if you would refuse to grant them any confidentiality – even if that complicates things a little.

Am I correct on the state of play at the moment?

If you are able to use section 75, then all you will get will be the refund of your purchase price. What is the value you paid as against the replacement value of the item? Also, I suspect that using section 75 would be a bit complicated and will cause some delay.

If the facts are as you have stated – so blatantly obvious of wrongdoing by a Parcelforce employee, and if the evidence you have is so clear and so graphic, then I would say that you will be able to force Parcelforce to settle completely with you within a couple of weeks or so. Much much faster than any section 75 process

of course, if they have identified the Parcelforce driver, they may available to get the computer back for you.

If you are able to you section 75, then all you will get will be the refund of your purchase price. What is the value you paid as against the replacement value of the item?

The same value of the price paid of £500

Okay, if you are happy that the replacement value is the same value as you paid for it, then all you need to add on your incidental expenses – any delivery charges et cetera and that the total value of your claim.

The fact that the two values are the same will make your life a lot easier because Parcelforce will have one thing less to quibble about.

I think that you need to take a little control of the claim and I think you need to get back to the manager who wrote you and tell him that you want target deadlines for action. Tell him that you cannot afford to be without your money for too long and that you are prepared to take action if necessary.

Assuming that it was him who told you that you have no rights under the contract, you should also tell him that he is quite wrong and that under the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act you have full rights under the contract – unless he can point you to something in their terms and conditions where the effect of that act has been excluded.

One little complication might be that they insist on returning the money to the seller of the item. You need to keep an eye on this and you need to contact the seller and telling what you're doing and warn him that the money might come back to him. You say that he is an okay guy – and that is reassuring for you, but keep an eye on it anyway.

Come back here and tell us what Parcelforce say next

Whoops. I see that the rights of third parties are expressly excluded,

15.1 Nothing in these Conditions (nor anything else), shall confer on any third party any benefit, nor the right to enforce any of these Conditions which that person would not have had but for the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999.

http://www.parcelforce.com/conditions-of-carriage

If the facts are as you have stated – so blatantly obvious of wrongdoing by a Parcelforce employee, and if the evidence you have is so clear and so graphic, then I would say that you will be able to force Parcelforce to settle completely with you within a couple of weeks or so. Much much faster than any section 75 process

of course, if they have identified the Parcelforce driver, they may available to get the computer back for you.

They gave me the driver's number, 219.

One of the two managers called me back asking me if the driver came back and solved the situation, therefore acknowledging him, pushing the driver to settle me with a cash. The driver will have to pay himself for his mistake, as mention by the manager. [recording]

In the last phone call, the manager explains that due from changes of circumstances, the driver would not come any more.

And I had to be in contact with "the sender", as they only deal with senders, although I am the one who's paying,

How do I let them know that I have theses recording?

I am only asking for a replacement of the same quality of the Macbook I purchased, not a new one. Unless they cannot find one.

As the driver done his job properly, I would not be there asking for what belong to me.

I would be enjoying it now instead of worrying if I am going to get any back in return.

Thanks

I suddenly realise, that you've been saying all the time that you paid – not the sender. Who actually organised the delivery? Did you pay parcel force and organise it? Or did you pay the sender and the sender organised it?

As far as disclosing the recording is concerned – I've already asked you several times if you have got backup copies and you haven't answered.

I think that you should list out the recordings that you have. How many recordings do you have?

I would list out on a spreadsheet – time/date/type of recording/between who and who/very brief – 140 character summary of what the recording tells us.

Produce a copy of your list here so we can have a look. Then we will see how to get it to them.

I suddenly realise, that you've been saying all the time that you paid – not the sender. Who actually organised the delivery? Or did you pay the sender and the sender organised it?

 

As far as disclosing the recording is concerned – I've already asked you several times if you have got backup copies and you haven't answered.

 

I think that you should list out the recordings that you have. How many recordings do you have?

 

I would list out on a spreadsheet – time/date/type of recording/between who and who/very brief – 140 character summary of what the recording tells us.

 

Produce a copy of your list here so we can have a look. Then we will see how to get it to them.

I paid the sender and the sender organised it.

I have 10 recordings plus the CCTs of the driver.

They admit seeing the CCTs, stipulating that the manager saw them with the driver. Only the driver came and watch them twice.

The calls start from the 14/11/2016 until the 21/11/2016

I did answered that I do have 3 copies of each recorded conversations.

Will do the list and post it

Thanks

I disagree with bankfodder.

Parcelforce will delay the claim for as long as it takes and going to court would mean more wasted time.

Don't trust the "ok guy" who sold you the MacBook.

If he was ok he would have refunded you and started a claim himself with Parcelforce.

You could try asking him for a refund and you could give him all the evidence to help him claim from Parcelforce.

I bet his answer will start with fuc_ and end with off.

Your PayPal account is linked to bank account or credit card, so you can do a chargeback /section 75.

My advice:

opening a dispute with paypal is pointless because as long as the seller has a tracking signed code he's in the clear.

Lots of cases online.

Do a chargeback and advice PayPal and the seller of this.

PayPal will threaten to close your account, sue you and even deport you to a deserted island in antartica.

All rubbish.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with this.

Your dispute is with Parcelforce and you should keep it that way. They've got a cheek telling you to sorted out the driver but as you now have evidence that this is what they have suggested, they will be extremely embarrassed and they will want to sorted out and hush it up quickly.

As it was the sender who entered into the contract – even though it was your money, then strictly speaking under the contract he is the only person who can sue. However, if they do force you to take action then I would take a very rapid action and I would Sue them both in contract and in negligence. I can't imagine that they would want to go to court on this and they will settle.

Given the amount of time and trouble you have been to on this I should put in a claim for compensation on top of the money you have paid for the computer and for the delivery charge. I suggest keeping it modest. I think that £150 would probably be at the top end of what you might expect. If it goes to court then I expect a judge would reduce it – but not much because I think the judge would want to hand out a bit of a slapped wrist. However, I think that Parcelforce are likely to pay because they simply wouldn't want this getting out.

Produce the list, let us have a look at it. And then I would suggest writing by email to any of the contacts that you have a Parcelforce including the manager who wrote to you. I would lay it out to them immediately that in view of the circumstances and in view of the fact that they have tried to give you advice to hush up the dishonesty of their employee, you are proposing to take the matter to the County Court in 14 days if they do not sorted out. Tell them that you want the cost of the computer – for which you are enclosing a receipt –, the delivery costs, plus £150 to compensate you for the time and trouble and aggravation you have had. Tell them that this is nonnegotiable and that you will definitely go to court if either they don't reply or if they try to argue it at all.

We will help you with all of this.

Surely getting £150 extra out of this would be nice and most likely Parcelforce would pay...eventually.

Whenever possible I prefer to avoid litigations if I don't lose anything.

In this case the matter is simple:

1.Op order a MacBook

2. MacBook was not received

3. Op should get a refund from seller or do chargeback

4. No war, no sweat, no upset, no time wasted

There is the list. Starts from the bottom page.

The last conversation was with a new guy from management.

He says that they will pay for what I've paid but nothing else. Certainly no compensation.

Voice 225.3gpp

New person from management call back. Now driver wont come back. Changes of circumstances.

Sender has already made a claim.

Claim the drivers boss has seen the cct. Lie

Aware and admit of the wrong doing on the drivers part. The guy sounds very upset admitting it.

They do not want to see the cct nor have copies any more.

They wont replace the Macbook. Just the price I've paid. They wont pay a penny more.

20161118_142643_0344 209 6151

Manager playing surprised my parcel was stolen??

Ask sender to make a claim. Surprised the driver came back. Playing ignorant. Driver 219.

Manager denied he supposed to come the day before 2-4pm.

Driver to sort it out.

Voice 217

9.50am driver turn up alone. No manager.

He watch cct again. Then admit that its his fault. No claim. Give you cash today.

If claim, loose my job.

20161116_173711_0344 209 6151

First lie telling that manager and driver came today to see cct.

Manager and driver will come back tomorrow again between 2-4pm

But driver turned up alone and they are not aware of it.

At 07.25mn, i’m told to hush the price i’ve paid and ask for a replacement with new one. They will send for another one for you, he says

20161116_172446_0344 209 6151

Call PF again. Driver did not turn up yesterday. Put me on hold for 9mn

20161116_104259_Parcel Force east Dépôt

Driver will come back between 3-5pm to solve problem.

Tell driver cannot speak good english

Voice 209.3gpp

Manager [sonil?] ask if driver came. Explain how parcel disappeared.

Tel me to ask sender to put a claim. Their contract is with the sender only. Repeat himself many times

Driver will have to pay out his own pocket if parcel not found.

Voice 208.3gpp

Confrontation with the driver and the receptionist.

Driver says he did not signed, a woman did.

Rush out when cornered

20161115_120547_Parcel Force east Dépôt

Manager call me back telling driver will come at 1700 to resolve the issue

20161114_162005_0344 209 6100

A woman telling that the parcel has been collected..?? PF will call back

Was put through another depot and spoke to manager

20161110_165835_0344 209 6100

First time reporting the parcel missing. Will contact me. No Answer.