Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by usman330 View Post
    'Paragraph 1.2 of Part I of the Third Schedule of the Lease says as follows:
    "To pay to the Lessor or the Management Company as the case may be on a full indemnity basis all costs and expenses incurred by the Lessor or the Management Company or their respective solicitors in enforcing the payment of any Rent or Service Charge or Service Charge Adjustment or Additional contributionicon or other monies payable by the Lessee under the terms of the Lease"

    Reading the above carefully, it says 'all costs and expenses incurred'. And looking at what they are actually trying to charge me for:

    28 May 12 late payment fee 114
    18 Feb 16 legal fees re section 146 procedure 450
    27 Sep 16 administration fee 138

    I don't know how they have 'incurred' 114 and 138 for late payment/administration fees. And legal fees cost of 450 cannot have been incurred by them as I have not been taken to court.

    Can anyone help with the best way to respond to them? Really appreciated.
    Well, a long legged secretary costs money and every time she hits a key on the keyboard it's a fiver gone.
    Answering the phone is a tenner and then a pound per second.
    That's how they came up with their fees...


    Tongue in cheek in case someone thinks I'm being serious 😂


  2. #22
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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    dunno
    sounds quite correct to me.

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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    Update after a lengthy period!


    So, I ignored all the demands for payment of these 'charges' and just continued paying the managing agent charge, they did send a few emails threatening court action but nothing happened.
    Recently found out that Regalty being replaced as managing agents and another firm is taking over. I received a lettericon from Regalty where they are once again chasing the 'debt' as no doubt they want to cash in as much as they can before they are replaced as managing agents on 28 June 2018.



    The letter is titled 'pre action protocol in relation to service charge debt'
    I can guess what they are doing is trying to state any payments I have made were applied to the 'adminicon charges' first, hence I am behind on my service charge. I have never had any intention of paying off their 'charges' and any payments I have made have been towards the actual managing agents fee, not to the 'charges'.


    They have asked me to reply to this pre action protocol within 30 days, im on about day 27 now. The letter has various forms attached asking if I agree/dont agree with the debt etc.
    They have written if I do nothing then 125+vat legal and adminicon costs will be added to my account and a court summons with further costs.


    Should I just ignore it again?


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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    well, they know they wont get their charges past a judge in a defended claim so it could say anything and then hope that yopu fail to respond to a court claim so they win by default.


    You could respond with a simple denial that the debt exists and they have misappropriated funds paid for the management fees without authority.


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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    Didnt see this the first time around...

    Despite some previous posts saying otherwise..a Freeholder MAY be able to charge extra adminicon fees BUT only if the lease allows (does yours ?), most older leases do not but some newer ones have clauses about late payment & extra fees, etc

    Note though that the lease is a contract between you and Freeholder NOT management company (unless its a rarer tripartite lease in which management agent is also a party), otherwise the MC just does the FHs bidding, there is no direct contract between you and MC and he has no right to sue.

    Even if he clears the above hurdles, adminicon fees must be correctly demanded in accordance with > https://www.lease-advice.org/advice-...arges-england/

    Also you can ask an FTT if they are "reasonable" (assuming they are payable under the lease & MC has right to sue).

    Also of relevance is new legislation asking FTT to disallow any such fees (cant recall exact legislation at the mo but its similar to previous S20C order for service charges)

    You mention S146 earlier, thjis seems wrong coz only a FH can go down forfeit path and also it cant be done if amount is less that 350 (for adminicon charges this amount CANT be made up of late payment or any sort of legal/.default fee..so in reality going down forfeit path for ONLY admin charges is nearly impossible).


  6. #26
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    Default Re: Regalty Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    Thankyou. The last I heard from them was this when they threatened to start legal action within 7 days which didn't materialize, that was in Feb 2017:


    On 04/07/2017 17:35, xxx xxx wrote:
    > Dear Sir
    > Kindly confirm if the outstanding balance will be paid? Failing which we will issue proceedings against you.
    >
    > Kind Regards
    >
    > xxx xxx LLM (Hons)
    > Solicitor




    On 1 February 2017 at 12:53, xxx xxx <legal@regalty-estates.co.uk> wrote:

    > Dear Sir
    > Further to the below, we note that a large balance remains outstanding. If payment is not made within 7 days then we will issue proceedings against you in the county courticon to recover this.
    > Kind Regards
    > xxx xxx LLM (Hons)
    > Solicitor


    On 18 October 2016 at 11:49, xxx xxx <legal@regalty-estates.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    > Dear Sir
    >
    > Paragraph 1.2 of Part I of the Third Schedule of the Lease says as follows:
    >
    > "To pay to the Lessor or the Management Company as the case may be on a full indemnity basis all costs and expenses incurred by the Lessor or the Management Company or their respective solicitors in enforcing the payment of any Rent or Service Charge or Service Charge Adjustment or Additional contributionicon or other monies payable by the Lessee under the terms of the Lease"
    >
    > Kind Regards
    >
    > xxx xxx LLM (Hons)
    > Solicitor




    On 18 October 2016 at 11:43, xxx xxx <xxxxxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > Thankyou for your reply. Can you please provide me with an extract of the lease showing where 'adminicon fees' and 'charges' apply.
    >
    > Many Thanks
    >
    > xxx xxx




    On 13/10/2016 15:39, xxx xxx wrote:
    >> Dear Sir
    >>
    >> You have been provided with a statement on 7 October detailing the amounts outstanding. If you are unsure about this then please let me know which items you are unsure about and I shall clarify these.
    >>
    >> Kind Regards
    >>
    >> xxx xxx LLM (Hons)
    >> Solicitor




    On 11 October 2016 at 15:40, xxx xxx <xxxxxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >> Dear Regalty Estates ,
    >>
    >> In regards to your correspondence dated 27/09/2016, the contents of which are duly noted. I require a full and comprehensive breakdown of the amounts you allege are owed to you along with how the amounts are related to each point. Failure to provide me with this information will mean no further communication will be entered into and any legal action on your behalf will be fully defended with your non compliance forming part of the defence.
    >>
    >> Sincerely
    >>
    >> xxx xxx




    They are claiming in their current letter that as I am behind on service charge payment that I owe the full amount for the year to 31 dec 2018... even though they are being replaced as managing agents at the end of this month. The service charge statement they have sent doesn't actually break down how the alleged debt is owed, and is simply a ledger showing opening balance/closing balances, invoices and payments. They have still not sent me a clear breakdown of the alleged amount owed.

    Going to send them the following:
    Dear Regalty Estates,
    In regards to your correspondence dated 16/05/2018 the contents of which are duly noted. I require a full and comprehensive breakdown of the amounts you allege are owed to you along with how the amounts are related to each point. The service charge statement does not breakdown or help in identifying how the alleged 1024.41 owed to you has been accrued, with the statement showing the balance brought forward of 564.00 on 01/01/2017 but no indication of how this balance has arisen. There have also been further, regular payments recently keeping the account up to date.
    Failure to provide me with this information will mean no further communication will be entered into and any legal action on your behalf will be fully defended with your non compliance forming part of the defence.

    Sincerely
    Any amendments to it are welcomed.


  7. #27
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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    Thankyou andydd, our replies both came in at the same time so I will read through your post and update


  8. #28
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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    When I questioned them on the lease a long time ago they said this:

    > Paragraph 1.2 of Part I of the Third Schedule of the Lease says as follows:
    >
    > "To pay to the Lessor or the Management Company as the case may be on a full indemnity basis all costs and expenses incurred by the Lessor or the Management Company or their respective solicitors in enforcing the payment of any Rent or Service Charge or Service Charge Adjustment or Additional contributionicon or other monies payable by the Lessee under the terms of the Lease"
    >




    Going back to how these charges arose, I received a lettericon demanding payment of 'general maintenance reserve’ and ‘insurance excess reserve' along with various charges as they stated they had been sending me letters and I had not paid up in time. I did tell them that I had not received any of the letters hence they charges were unreasonable. They stuck to their guns and wouldnt back down, saying they had sent letters. Hence the long thread, with the alleged debt now being a figure I don't have a clue how they have arrived at.

    From a logical perspective, I would think that they need to actually send me a clear breakdown of what they say I owe them, which they still have not done to this day, just sending me a statement of account instead which doesnt even go far back enough to show the charges being applied.



    So would it be a good move to send them the following:

    Dear Regalty Estates,
    In regards to your correspondence dated 16/05/2018 the contents of which are duly noted. I require a full and comprehensive breakdown of the amounts you allege are owed to you along with how the amounts are related to each point. The service charge statement does not breakdown or help in identifying how the alleged 1024.41 owed to you has been accrued, with the earliest statement showing the balance brought forward of 564.00 on 01/01/2017 but no indication of how this balance has arisen. There have also been further, regular payments recently keeping the account up to date which are not reflected.
    Failure to provide me with this information will mean no further communication will be entered into and any legal action on your behalf will be fully defended with your non compliance forming part of the defence.

    Sincerely


  9. #29
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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    It appears that you are also behind with service charge payments ?

    It does also appear that the lease gives them the right to charge extra costs if you are late paying.

    What you need to do is write and say you are asking for a breakdown of costs as per S21 of The Landlord & Tenant Act 1985 to request a breakdown of costs (also mention that as they are threatening legal action you are requesting a breakdown as the CPR disclosure/pre-litigation rules) - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/70/section/21

    If you receive something back you can then use S22 to visit them and inspect invoices, etc (although may not be easy if they are not close) > https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/70/section/22

    Did the service charge & adminicon charges demands comply with the law..i.e did they include Summary of Rights ?


  10. #30
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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    Thanks Andy.
    No, im not behind on service charge payments. From my own guessing I can work out they are chasing me for these 2 charges:
    28 May 12 – late payment fee 114
    18 Feb 16 – legal fees re section 146 procedure 450




    What annoys me the most is that these 'charges' were put onto my account as they reckonded they had written to me in regards to emergency payments, I never received the letters and they put the charges on. As soon as I was aware of the emergency payments they wanted I paid them.
    Would the 28 May 2012 late payment fee be statute barredicon now as its over 6 years?
    The 450 legal fees charge, they have never actually taken me to court so cant see how they are making out this is due.




    So first step would be getting them to actually confirm what I owe them.

    Will send them this:

    Dear Regalty Estates,

    In regards to your correspondence dated 16/05/2018 the contents of which are duly noted. I require a full and comprehensive breakdown of costs as per S21 of The Landlord & Tenant Act 1985 of the amounts you allege are owed to you along with how the amounts are related to each point. As you are threatening legal action you I request a breakdown as the CPR disclosure/pre-litigation rules.

    The service charge statement you have sent does not breakdown or help in identifying how the alleged 1024.41 owed to you has been accrued, with the earliest document attached to the statement you sent showing the balance brought forward of 564.00 on 01/01/2017 but no indication of how this balance has arisen.

    There have also been further, regular payments recently keeping the account up to date which are not reflected.

    Failure to provide me with this information will mean no further communication will be entered into and any legal action on your behalf will be fully defended with your non compliance forming part of the defence.

    Sincerely




  11. #31
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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    Hi.

    For any pure service charge cost..the stat barred limit is 12 years but for any resulting adminicon cost its 6 yearsicon as is ground rent.

    Im not sure about the 18 Feb 16 cost..whilst nearly all leases do allow costs to be claimed even if its not gone to court, most leases have wording like.."in contemplation of s146 or forfeiture costs"..BUT for them to "contemplate" you must of genuinely owed an amount of over 350 or if less for more than 3 years........this 350 amount is normally comprised of service charge costs..IF it includes adminicon charges then normally they dont count..i.e a landlord cant claim you owe 250 service charges....and then bump it up to 350 by added on 100 adminicon charges for late payment..the amount is still 250 and therefore the forfeit/s146 doesnt apply.

    Also even if s146 did apply..they have to show they were actually really contemplating it....and not just saying it to add on costs..there is lots of contradictory case law about this and its a right bloody mess !


  12. #32
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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    Thanks, will post again hopefully a bit clearer:




    Thankyou for that, so if I am right which I am certain I am in that all of the costs they have added together are 'charges', with one being from 2012 for 114, then that would be statue barred now.


    They have responded to my email:
    On 16/06/2018 21:00, Legal Department wrote:

    Dear xxx

    You are quite incorrect insofar as the law is concerned.

    Your request pursuant to Section 21 cannot be complied with by ourselves as we are in the process of handing over to Realty Property Management and therefore would require the full 30 days under the act to give you an appropriate breakdown.


    Furthermore, this request would be a summary of the previous accounts.

    Your account will be charged with the overdue fee (you having now taken nearly a month to communicate to us following our letter) and the matter passed to the new managing agent to pursue.

    Kind Regards

    on behalf of Regalty Law
    Legal Department of Regalty Estates



    On 15 June 2018 at 22:46, xxx wrote:
    Dear Regalty Estates,

    In regards to your correspondence dated 16/05/2018 the contents of which
    are duly noted. I require a full and comprehensive breakdown of costs as
    per S21 of The Landlord & Tenant Act 1985 of the amounts you allege are
    owed to you along with how the amounts are related to each point. As you
    are threatening legal action I request a breakdown as the CPR
    disclosure/pre-litigation rules.

    The service charge statement you have sent does not breakdown or help in
    identifying how the alleged 1024.41 owed to you has been accrued, with
    the earliest document attached to the statement you sent showing the
    balance brought forward of 564.00 on 01/01/2017 but no indication of
    how this balance has arisen.

    There have also been further, regular payments recently keeping the
    account up to date which are not reflected.

    Failure to provide me with this information will mean no further
    communication will be entered into and any legal action on your behalf
    will be fully defended with your non compliance forming part of the defence.

    Sincerely



  13. #33
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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    Thank you for the edit, I've tidied the thread.


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  14. #34
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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    I know this business and it really is a bit of a mess, dont worry about the letters theyre sending.

    They dont have a legal guy anymore, only the owner who claims to be an expert but really isnt.

    I think he bullys people with threats and letters to try and get his own way. Wouldnt worry about him. Hes known locally and he sends everyone legal letters for silly things, not even business related.

    Hes a joke.


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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    Seems like they are playing silly buggers, who is your actual Freeholder ? So are they saying they are changing from one management company to another ?

    have you got a copy of the lease you could scan ?

    Could also do with seeing all the letters received to try and get my head around it all.

    Am I correct in saying..you havnt told us the name of the actual Freeholder yet ?

    The management company was Plumlife then Regalty Estates and will soon be Realty Property Management ?

    Andy


  16. #36
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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment

    Found this > https://decisions.lease-advice.org//...-8000/7470.PDF

    Regalty (acting as a management agent here but not as the actual Freeholder) admit that demands sent out by them were invalid.


  17. #37
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    Default Re: Regalty/Plumlife Estates.have made up 702 in charges and demand payment



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