Insightful that Corbyns response to the resignations is - Try to get them deselected

... while readmitting those quite rightly ejected from the Party

Now if the Labour Party had treated Corbyn in the same way as he is treating members who's views differ from his own

(even now with him frustrating stated Party policy)

.. he wouldn't be a member of the labour Party - and he shouldn't be.

Add to that the massive losses of Unite members Jobs as a result of Mccloughsky, Mcdonnall and Corbyns policies in seeking power at ANY cost

Just shows what the Labour Party has become on Corbyns watch

I for one wil NEVER vote Labour again while he is leading. Whatever the Tories do, I dont believe it will be worse than what he will do.

Not strictly related to this thread but Anna Soubry, Heidi Allen and Sarah Wollaston have joined the Labour breakaway group, plus another Labour MP earlier.

[h=1]Labour leader Corbyn says he could back a second Brexit referendum[/h]

... he is of course just lying, carefully using 'could' with caveats

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-corbyn/labour-leader-corbyn-says-he-could-back-a-second-brexit-referendum-idUKKCN1QB2FA

regarding the new group HB

... I think one of its main intents is to shift the balance of power from the DUP

- at least neutralising if not ending their ransoming,

the other amy be to show other MP's that they CAN vote with their consciences.

It'll be interesting to see how it pans out, TJ.

Next week Parliament might instruct May to ask the EU to extend article 50.

If May refuses, she would have to resign or be held in contempt of Parliament.

and here is what Corbyn is enabling with his antics

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/21/liam-fox-post-brexit-trade-plan-go-unscrutinised

"The international trade secretary, Liam Fox, is using the opportunity to avoid proper scrutiny of plans that threaten our rights, our environment and our democracy."

"ISDS clauses let foreign investors sue national governments for introducing policies that harm their profits."

(ISDS) "have led to global corporations taking governments to secretive private arbitration courts in cases that can cost taxpayers billions."

... Examples in link.

SO MUCH FOR Fox's and Brexits so fetishised “Take back control” slogan."

"If we do leave the EU next month, the trade deals Fox lines up could hold all future governments to ransom."

so for any future progressive prime minister with ambitions to empower our communities and redesign our economy, or even protect any existing consumer rights

.... as their "hands would be tied by any ISDS agreements."

So she's kicked the can down the road again - next vote is supposed to be on 12th March. The BBC has a quote from Guy Verhofstadt:

And the European Parliament's Brexit co-ordinator, Guy Verhofstadt, accused Mrs May of "kicking the can down the road". He said the delay would cause "crippling uncertainty" and was "one of the most reckless" decisions he had seen in politics.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47348610

So she's kicked the can down the road again - next vote is supposed to be on 12th March. The BBC has a quote from Guy Verhofstadt:

 

And the European Parliament's Brexit co-ordinator, Guy Verhofstadt, accused Mrs May of "kicking the can down the road". He said the delay would cause "crippling uncertainty" and was "one of the most reckless" decisions he had seen in politics.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47348610

I think May needs to go as much as Corbyn now.

Thoughts were that if May goes, the Tories would vote in someone like Rabb or Davies or (god forbid) Johnson

But I think the bullet needs to be bitten an both sides yo force the issue.

We may end up with 2 or even 3 more Parties, but I think that would be in the populations interest

ERG/UKIP/Nationist (about 70-100) (crucially losing first/second party funding)

Conservatives (about 200)

Corbyns National Trots (about 70 - 100 - losing the second party funding)

Middle Ground (mainly Labour with some Tories) (about 150 - 180) (gaining second party funding)

SNP (sameish)

Scottish Tories (Maybe same, probably less after next election)

Scottish Labour (maybe 1 or 2)

DUP (Same)

Welsh (who cares - proven themselves nonentities)

Libs (Same or wiped out - sadly proven themselves nonentities)

Greens (Maybe more - should be)

Issue is the 'national' funding of parties

Interesting that May says delay needed because she is near a breakthrough on the backstop

... Yet EU sources say - They dont know what she is doing, why she is coming, and nothing has changed.

Which quite clearly says 'running out the clock

and Corbyn is reportedly weasel wording 'support' for a referendum in the future AFTER May brings the vote to parliament ...

... BUT he is of course just doing that to try to avoid HAVING to do that stop a mass exodus tomorrow

... aka -- helping May run the clock out.

I have grown to absolutely despise that weasel perhaps even more than I despise Johnson.

Sooner the party splits and he is left with a minority of Trots and gutless toadies hanging on to their MP's salaries at all costs, the better.

The weasel who destroyed the Labour Party from within.

And now we start to understand the type of trade deal we're likely to get from the US.  They want to restrict who we have trade deals with, plus have comprehensive access to agricultural markets as in chorinated chicken and hormone fed beef and make the NHS pay more for drugs.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/01/brexit-trump-trade-hanoi

And they want more or less full access to our market while keeping barriers for our trade with them.

Ok with the 'meaningful vote' coming up, lets look at a couple of the current machinations

Corbyn

Attempt to agree a Corbyn (undefined mulch) deal cross party - talking to Tory MPs

It is of course just Corbyn trying to avoid the 'Peoples Vote' he is so implacably opposed to and the party has forced on him.

If He can get a majority for any kind of deal (which will of course be MASSIVELY inferior to our existing deal, and WONT deliver Hard Brexiters' the Brexit they want)

then he can avoid having to support the 'peoples vote' the party has forced on him.

No surprises there except his desperation in approaching Tories to support a vague wishful unagreed with the EU or anyone Corbyn Brexit.

Cox

(Our Nobless codpiece Oblige Attorney General - in keeping with his own puns)

Has come up with the machine gun to the UK foot

" Cox said unless the backstop could be shown to be a temporary arrangement, it risked breaching protocol 1, article 3 of the convention, which protects the rights of people to vote in order to choose their legislature."

As the EU has already said that

* The backstop was at the UK's request to resolve the Good Friday/Island of Ireland border issues

* If the UK does not leave on 29th it will need to hold MEP elections and be represented - and that is the UK's duty to do

* That resolving the requirements for NOT INVOKING the UK requested and agreed backstop without a hard border (the UK's proposed technical solution) is also primarily a UK issue

So, When you give it some thought

- Cox is actually lining the UK up to be in breach of the Human Rights acts it is quoting if the UK doesn't resolve the technical solution to the border, and/or doesn't follow the process to get its MEP's and their representation

WHAT a plonker

Perhaps its just a plan to leave absolutely no options on the table resulting in a hard crash out

- but that would also seem result in the UK failing under those same Human Rights

WHAT a plonker

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/07/attorney-general-geoffrey-cox-rejects-eu-brexit-deadlock-complaints

It's hard to know what's going to happen. There's talk that if Treeza's deal as it stands is rejected again, she may pull the votes on alternatives like taking no deal out of the equation. One theory is that she wants it to come down to a choice between no deal, which even some in the ERG don't want now because it's so scary, and her deal that almost everyone thinks is rubbish.

Having seen what's been said to the EU [and they must be pulling their hair out over negotiating with Cox] and others, I think they're using no deal Brexit as a threat to try and get people to do what they want. The trouble is that the EU has negotiators who do this for a living and they're having to talk to our politicians.

Theres no theory there HB - nail on the head

May's official stance is her deal or no deal, but I seriously think that her proposing a referendum with just those two on the ballot would split the party as effectively as Hard Brexit - or a full referendum with Remain.

Timed out seems her 'easy out' - before she is then kicked out.

Corbyns stance (not the Labour Party or PLP' stance) is clearly His deal or nothing as he is touting taking no deal off the table - but that may just be more Corbyn Bull to minimise his conflict with the majority of the party and party policy.

He seems to be clearly demonstrating that he is happy 'accidentally' facilitating Mays easy out option as the alternative to everyone accepting his undefined, unagreed, impossible Corbyn cake and eat it Brexit

.. all in the face of stated party policy

Seems strange that everyone is bothered what the clearly minority Brexiters will think - and no-one cares about all the voters who voted remain - OR the Brexit voters who will have changed their minds since finding out what a crock of poo they were sold.

To be fair to Cox, if you look closely, he is quite clearly 'intimating' that he is doing his required duty in obeying instructions - 'Noblesse Oblige' among other clues.

Its going to be at least an interesting (in a sick way) Tuesday,

and perhaps one of the defining points in History which will perhaps be exampled in political and history classes in higher education for centuries.

May the unready?

Britain the unready?

Brexit the Unready?

I feel the creation of a saga coming on inspired by Mays never ending attempts to bring her deal back  ....

In the dark and dreadful days

that passed from the flight of the wicked vizier and the fall of the great civilisation

three men sat in a cave

One said to the other 'Tell us a story

.... and the other said

In the dark and dreadful days

that passed from the flight of the wicked vizier and the fall of the great civilisation

three men sat in a cave

One said to the other 'Tell us a story

.... and the other said

In the dark and dreadful days

that passed from the flight of the wicked vizier and the fall of the great civilisation

three men sat in a cave

.....

Next week, i predict that decision will be made to ask EU to extend Article 50 period.

If May's deal is approved by Parliament, they will need more time to get the legislation through.

if May's deal is rejected, Parliament will need more time to consider options.

Remember that even if May's deal is approved, that Parliament can still amend legislation, to require the UK to have a Customs union with the EU etc. 

Brexit is going to rumble on for years.

Cancelling Brexit appears to be the safest option. ;)

I agree with what you're saying, UB. They've left it so long that there isn't time to pass legislation before the 29th if it's needed. As I said the other day, May thinks she's terrified people over a no deal Brexit and is trying to force through her own hugely disliked deal. In the meantime we seem to be doing 'broken record' in Brussels and getting nowhere except to annoy people over there.

There was an article in the Guardian the other day by Ivan Rogers, who was involved in all of this when he was our permanent representative. He said the Tories seem to have no idea that this is the easy bit and that the ongoing negotiations over the terms of the future relationship, which have been left vague by the Tories in the withdrawal agreement, will indeed take years.

Good article by Alistair Campbell in today's Guardian. Here's a quotea;

'The Irish backstop was the main reason for the opposition to her deal. But there were plenty more. And those reasons have not changed either: we know the promises made for Brexit will be broken; we know real facts about the real costs of leaving the EU; we know the deal guarantees no clarity about the future, just a crisis that goes on and on.

He's not keen on TJ's friend Mr Codpiece either.

'

9 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

Good article by Alistair Campbell in today's Guardian. Here's a quotea;

'The Irish backstop was the main reason for the opposition to her deal. But there were plenty more. And those reasons have not changed either: we know the promises made for Brexit will be broken; we know real facts about the real costs of leaving the EU; we know the deal guarantees no clarity about the future, just a crisis that goes on and on.

He's not keen on TJ's friend Mr Codpiece either.

'

Is that the same Alister Campbell who with his mate Tony Blair

took the country into an illegal with Iraq that cost so many live 

 and resulted in the formation of ISS?

You really think we should take notice of anything he says!

On 09/03/2019 at 18:25, buckthorn said:

Is that the same Alister Campbell who with his mate Tony Blair

took the country into an illegal with Iraq that cost so many live 

 and resulted in the formation of ISS?

You really think we should take notice of anything he says!

so in what way is what was quoted false buckthorn?

* The Irish backstop was the main reason for the opposition to her deal. But there were plenty more. And those reasons have not changed either:

* we know the promises made for Brexit will be broken;

* we know real facts about the real costs of leaving the EU;

* we know the deal guarantees no clarity about the future, just a crisis that goes on and on. "

They all look to be simple true facts to me.

As is the simple certainty that May will again this week attempt to simply kick the can down the road hoping to simply run out of time and leave a last minute vote on her deal or no deal, relying on the divisions within Parliament

- and the ERG + DUP + Corbyn will trust her deal continues to get rejected --- resulting in a crash out

... unless Parliament stops her

Its also a simple fact that there is already no time left to pass legislation required for any option.

I see this morning they appear to have managed to get the Attorney General to change his legal position, and yet they seem to be proudly exclaiming that a breakthrough has been reached

IMO Article 50 needs to be rescinded or at least a second referendum.  No one voted for a constitutional crisis and a crashing economy.  It's not worth it for the sake of a few unicorn trade deals, and a couple of soundbites.

As for taking back control, any Brexiteer only needs to Google ownership of our Airports, Water companies, Infrastructure, Railways etc to realise we are owned lock stock and Barrel by foreign entities anyway. Brexit won't change any of that.

The guardian reports 3 'assurances' (new or not)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/12/may-brexit-deal-has-anything-actually-changed-backstop-assurances-what-happens-next

*  "a joint interpretative instrument, designed to give legally binding assurances to the letter written by Juncker and the chief EU negotiator, Michel Barnier, in January that the backstop cannot be a permanent solution to the Northern Ireland border issue."

*  " a joint statement on the future trade relationship which says that both sides will pursue “alternative arrangements” to the backstop over the next 20 months in good faith"

*  "the UK has issued its own unilateral declaration, asserting that it will apply to the independent arbitration panel to dismantle the backstop provisions if the government believes the EU is not making efforts to end the arrangement. The EU has not formally objected to this document, which UK ministers have said means it has legal weight"

So,

* The EU has agreed the backstop cannot be permanent

- something the EU have always said.

* The EU has given slightly stronger wording that they will pursue alternative arrangements in good faith

- which few doubted was already the case and depends on the UK actually progressing some practical alternative arrangements.

* and the UK has said that they will apply to the independent arbitration if they think the EU isn't trying hard enough to solve the UK's problems

- arbitration is arbitration and warrants no comment from the EU.

4 minutes ago, London1971 said:

IMO Article 50 needs to be rescinded or at least a second referendum.  No one voted for a constitutional crisis and a crashing economy.  It's not worth it for the sake of a few unicorn trade deals, and a couple of soundbites.

 

As for taking back control, any Brexiteer only needs to Google ownership of our Airports, Water companies, Infrastructure, Railways etc to realise we are owned lock stock and Barrel by foreign entities anyway. Brexit won't change any of that.

+1

+2.

Did anyone see the article by an ex-Australian PM about thinking that trade with the Commonwealth will replace what we have with Europe?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/11/commonwealth-save-brexit-britain-utter-delusion-kevin-rudd

oops - missed a bit of nothing

" May did indeed get something unilateral – the right to issue her own unilateral declaration, in which she could freely state that “it is the position of the United Kingdom that there would be nothing to prevent the UK instigating measures that would ultimately dis-apply the backstop.”

This is rather like my son winning the right to declare that it is his position that he should get more pocket money. It doesn’t mean I’ve agreed to give him more pocket money. The clue is in the word “unilateral.”

The EU is not bound by this UK declaration and has, in fact, conceded nothing. "

1 minute ago, honeybee13 said:

+2.

 

Did anyone see the article by an ex-Australian PM about thinking that trade with the Commonwealth will replace what we have with Europe?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/11/commonwealth-save-brexit-britain-utter-delusion-kevin-rudd

 

Yup,

They were interviewing a lady about why she voted leave the other day on 5 live, ' she was sick of the EU standards imposed on us like what vacuum cleaners we could use'

Enough said